2017 AAGPS/CAS Combined "Comp"

[sidelineview]

As posted on the GPS thread, this years GPS/CAS clash should be very interesting given the circumstances/results of trial games so far.

Hopefully, the coaches wont spoil the encounter by adopting boring tactics based primarily on forward play.

There's enough talent in both Associations to put on an entertaining game of running rugby for what promises to be a very big crowd of spectators.

Given the grey landscape of Australian rugby in general, schoolboy rugby coaches need to encourage their charges to back themselves and showcase their skills on the field.

There's a lot to be said for percentage play to secure a win, but with the right mix of confident attacking play, schoolboy rugby will remain the most enjoyable form of rugby to watch.

Hopefully the right coaches are appointed.

 

[Harv]

Harv, what you have suggested is in essence the now defunct Waratah Shield/Cup system. It is an ideal solution but no schools from CAS and GPS compete, for a variety of reasons, mainly so they can focus on their association competition.

I’m not proposing a Waratah Shield-like competition, though I certainly lament that competition’s demise, accelerated by elite school disinterest and waning numbers of competitive government high school teams.

Nor am I suggesting GPS or CAS should stop focusing on their “own” competitions. They do and they will. What’s wrong, though, with tweaking the trial period to make it open and meaningful to people other than you and your peers?

The game has been well served by the GPS system, and despite the drop in the number of teams at most schools, will probably continue to be. It flourishes, however, when it has a significant presence in the suburbs and schools outside the NSW and Queensland private school belts – just ask many of the former government school kids who played in the peerless Australian Schools side of 1977 or club rugby in the 80s and early 90s.

The game’s current woes in Australia, from the mediocrity of under age and schoolboy teams to the crap being served up in Super Rugby, stem from the perception that it is an elitist sport. It’s always been based on exclusion, not a great idea for a professional sport that competes for attention from the people who have been traditionally excluded or at least poorly catered for in terms of participation.

It’s time for that to change, not just by preaching a message of inclusion and cooperation but taking decisive action in the best interests of the sport, and quite frankly the wider community.

My rough outline is for a multi-faceted weekend competition that potentially has both group play and a knockout phase. Teams would be ranked/seeded and for the most part only play outfits of similar strength (as per the GPS/CAS ‘trials, that should also include at least three ISA teams). There would be, however, the chance, perhaps in the knockout phase, for a bolter or three to get a look in.

Maybe, for argument’s sake, it’s a combined CHS Country side, facing Joeys. There is nothing negative about Joey’s hosting that match as its First XV fixture while the rest of the school (from 2nd XV down) plays another elite school.

It’s only a sketch of an idea, but it’s quite clear the game has to play a new hand by reaching out to those it’s not catering for rather than merely shuffling the deck by having Kings deign to meet Waverley in the preseason.

I now live in the US. The sport here and everywhere else in the world is booming. In part that’s because it’s not loaded down by the perception it is lumbered with in Australia. The work is being done at the grassroots, where Sevens and women’s rugby have helped put the game on the map and facilitated the growth of a rugby IQ in the community, something lacking in Australia because of the insular nature of the sport’s administration and development policies.

I’d like Australian rugby to stop its march toward irrelevance. If people are happy about it becoming the equivalent of polo in terms of demographics, so be it, but I’d like to see it flourish outside Sydney’s eastern suburbs.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^^It does.
It's flourishing in Mosman and on the north shore.

 

[Black & White]

^^^^It does.
It's flourishing in Mosman and on the north shore.

And at Newington where more boys are playing Rugby not soccer in the 13s Age Divison. 7 Rugby Teams versus 8 Soccer teams, which is 105 Boys plus, as opposed 88 boys plus.

 

[Rugby Central]

The various solutions to enhancing schoolboy rugby, making competitions competitive etc. all hinge on one question that is yet to be answered.

Do schools want to maintain their association competitions structures in one form or another. If so, then there cannot, nor should there be, any change. You can't grade schools accurately with the cyclical nature of schoolboy rugby and then separate them all to go back to their association comp.

If (a big one) the idea of the un-associated schools competing against each other is to happen then accurate annual grading needs to occur. While not a perfect system, the one used by junior club rugby could be beneficial.

Teams nominate which level of completion they wish to compete in. they then trial against similarly nominated teams. At the end of the trial period each team is graded up/down/same based on the results and then the competition begins.

There are pros and cons to this, however it addresses unbalanced results and mismatched team numbers between schools. The main benefit being is it covers all schoolboy rugby, so little Johnny's U13's don't get bashed senseless just because the school has a solid 1st XV this year.

But it's all redundant if schools wish to maintain some kind of association competition or rugby becomes a 20 week competition over-running all other school sport.....hang, there's an idea there somewhere

 

[Harv]

The various solutions to enhancing schoolboy rugby, making competitions competitive etc. all hinge on one question that is yet to be answered.

Do schools want to maintain their association competitions structures in one form or another. If so, then there cannot, nor should there be, any change. You can't grade schools accurately with the cyclical nature of schoolboy rugby and then separate them all to go back to their association comp.

If (a big one) the idea of the un-associated schools competing against each other is to happen then accurate annual grading needs to occur. While not a perfect system, the one used by junior club rugby could be beneficial.

Teams nominate which level of completion they wish to compete in. they then trial against similarly nominated teams. At the end of the trial period each team is graded up/down/same based on the results and then the competition begins.

There are pros and cons to this, however it addresses unbalanced results and mismatched team numbers between schools. The main benefit being is it covers all schoolboy rugby, so little Johnny's U13's don't get bashed senseless just because the school has a solid 1st XV this year.

But it's all redundant if schools wish to maintain some kind of association competition or rugby becomes a 20 week competition over-running all other school sport...hang, there's an idea there somewhere

Why is any variation on the 'trial' system an attack on the structure of "association competitions"? It's not. The comps remain the same (until numbers dwindle again and weak teams have to be cut or forced to play their lead team in a 3rds comp). This is about the best use you can make of the trial period. I'm not suggesting expanding the season, just making better use of it. They're frigging schoolkids. Trials? What the hell for? Do it at school at lunchtime.

And for the record, grading teams -- creating seed and tier-based comps -- is how the rest of the world does it. Australia has a small and shrinking junior rugby program--if all the stakeholders (ARU, the GPS, CAS, CHS junior clubs and Subbies) came together, a cautious step in the direction of diversifying the base of the game would be possible.

 

[Hasbeen]

In the younger age groups I think the helicopter Mamas have had a role to play in discouraging kids from participating in Rugby from the perceived risk of injury - something I have seen regularly. This has been said before a number of times, but query whether Kiwi like weight restrictions might appease the more nervous parents and lead indirectly to greater grass roots participation. This coupled with something like Harv's suggestion of grading teams to avoid score blowouts might help. In raw numbers Kiwi has multiples of Rugby players compared to what we do.

 

[Quick Hands]

And for the record, grading teams -- creating seed and tier-based comps -- is how the rest of the world does it. Australia has a small and shrinking junior rugby program--if all the stakeholders (ARU, the GPS, CAS, CHS junior clubs and Subbies) came together, a cautious step in the direction of diversifying the base of the game would be possible.

Not really. Groupings of private schools along the lines of GPS in Sydney and Brisbane, APS in Melbourne, CAS, ISA are fairly common in the English speaking world.

For example - The Inter Academic League (Philadephia USA) a six school association of indepedent schools founded in 1887 for sporting competition.
https://www.malvernprep.org/page/athletics

In England we have schools such as Rugby which have maintained the same fixture list of over a 100 years.
https://www.rugbyschool.co.uk/co-curricular/sport/rugby/

This idea that our longstanding groupings of private schools are in some way unique in the world is a myth - although it has been repeated so many times by those who want to tear tradition down.

 

[sidelineview]

^^^^It does.
It's flourishing in Mosman and on the north shore.

Rugby doesnt flourish in schools in the Eastern Suburbs except in private schools. Not public schools.

It used to. It was a fair time ago now. Im not exactly sure when rugby fell off the radar in public high schools but the South-Eastern zone was pretty strong through a mid week schools comp.

Good luck trying to resurrect that.

Full marks to those keeping the game alive and
thriving on the North Shore

 

[Harv]

Not really. Groupings of private schools along the lines of GPS in Sydney and Brisbane, APS in Melbourne, CAS, ISA are fairly common in the English speaking world.

For example - The Inter Academic League (Philadephia USA) a six school association of indepedent schools founded in 1887 for sporting competition.
https://www.malvernprep.org/page/athletics

In England we have schools such as Rugby which have maintained the same fixture list of over a 100 years.
https://www.rugbyschool.co.uk/co-curricular/sport/rugby/

This idea that our longstanding groupings of private schools are in some way unique in the world is a myth - although it has been repeated so many times by those who want to tear tradition down.

"Tearing tradition down" is not an aim. Building on tradition to help a sport with a great history survive is the vision. Also, the idea of the well-heeled interacting with the masses is not an attack on "tradition."

I'll be sure to look up the hugely influential Inter Academic League next time I'm in Philly.

 

[Quick Hands]

"Tearing tradition down" is not an aim. Building on tradition to help a sport with a great history survive is the vision. Also, the idea of the well-heeled interacting with the masses is not an attack on "tradition."

I'll be sure to look up the hugely influential Inter Academic League next time I'm in Philly.

Not sure why you feel the need to set up a straw man argument about "the well-heeled interacting with the masses". That was not the point of my post at all.

You asserted that "creating seeded and tier-based competitions" is "what the rest of the world does".

This is demonstrably false.

I'm all for the well-heeled interacting with the masses. If the ARU invested in junior club rugby for the past 20 years instead of outsourcing youth development to the private school system, that is what we would have in rugby. Sadly, alone in Australian sport, we persist with a schools based model instead of a club based model - and the results are there for all to see.

 

[Harv]

Not sure why you feel the need to set up a straw man argument about "the well-heeled interacting with the masses". That was not the point of my post at all.

You asserted that "creating seeded and tier-based competitions" is "what the rest of the world does".

This is demonstrably false.

I'm all for the well-heeled interacting with the masses. If the ARU invested in junior club rugby for the past 20 years instead of outsourcing youth development to the private school system, that is what we would have in rugby. Sadly, alone in Australian sport, we persist with a schools based model instead of a club based model - and the results are there for all to see.

I agree with you. A schools based model in Australian rugby at the expense of building a presence through other pathways has been destructive. As for my "strawman" argument .. whaa?? You were being defensive about “tradition”. I made the point that I wasn’t challenging that model, just seeking to promote the idea that more should and could be done to spread the rugby gospel. I was using hyperbole to make the point. And I wasn't questioning the existence of private school clusters, just the idea that they are the dominant structures in constructing models for developing and cultivating sporting excellence. They're not, otherwise, for example, Harvard and the other Ivy League universities in the US would be producing most of the NBA and NFL stars. Ranking, seeding, tiering, conferencing … whatever … mass market sports at a junior level across the world have systems in place to ensure competitiveness, fairness, develop skill and ensure safety.
OK, enough from moi. I'm not here to denigrate. I like the game and don't want it disappearing up its own arse in my home country. It's avoidable if powerful sectors of the rugby community come together and work on inclusion.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^i think the point is that schools do not have a charter to promote or foster rugby development. No school does. They happen to play rugby because they see (or saw) a value in team sport and at the time TKS, NC and SGS got started rugby was about all there was.
Try this on for some odd sporting history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Italy
And then muse as to why we never adopted soccer - soccer had not even spread in an organised way to Italy.

 

[Rugby Central]

Why is any variation on the 'trial' system an attack on the structure of "association competitions"? It's not.

I apologise Harv if you have misunderstood. It's not an attack, just an acceptance that to have a meaningful cross association competition that is competitive AND the traditional association competition, there needs to more time allocated to the season than currently exists.

By having a "graded" structure it allows Asquith Boys High if they have a good U15's side, but no other teams, to play against Knox U15's. Thus providing greater opportunities for participation.

I'm trying to find solutions, not attack anyone. It's just that you can't have change and maintain the status quo at the same time.

schools do not have a charter to promote or foster rugby development.

You're absolutely right IS. I guess my point is which is better for boys; smashing uncompetitive teams developing an unhealthy sense of their own ability (or worse, sense of superiority) and flip-side learning to hate playing rugby.
OR; knowing each win or loss happened with a competitive side where no result can be looked on with disappointment.

 

[sidelineview]

The Cup/Plate idea floated on the GPS forum is worth consideration.

 

[Hasbeen]

A thought to throw into the mix. Apart from the plate/cup/divisional structure suggested here and on other threads, I see a possibility in the future where some schools with non supportive HM will simply say to students - "Rugby= too hard, go join a club or put a school team or composite school/outsiders team into a club comp if you can generate the numbers and we will allow that to count to Saturday sport...." I think we are about 10 years away from that unless the ARU and schools develop a common strategy. Just sayin''......

 

[sidelineview]

The governing bodies should never take control of school rugby but their involvement/interest would raise hope that they are concerned about the future and are willing to be proactive with initiatives and working with club/schools to keep the ball rolling.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A thought to throw into the mix. Apart from the plate/cup/divisional structure suggested here and on other threads, I see a possibility in the future where some schools with non supportive HM will simply say to students - "Rugby= too hard, go join a club or put a school team or composite school/outsiders team into a club comp if you can generate the numbers and we will allow that to count to Saturday sport.." I think we are about 10 years away from that unless the ARU and schools develop a common strategy. Just sayin''..

I wish they would

 

[sidelineview]

The last round of the 5 game GPS/CAS trial format will be played on Saturday.

Players have had a chance to impress selectors.
Some teams have earned bragging rights while others appear to have under-achieved.

Whether the trial form extends into the 'real' season or not, remains to be seen.

Personally, I wouldn't like to see it repeated next season. It certainly wasn't much ado about nothing; on the contrary, but it should be put to rest for the future.

It was however, interesting.

My conclusion is that the individual Associations should be left alone to sort out their own problems, run their own pre-season trial games, engage in a one-round comp and then participate in a Cup/Pate competition.

It's the best suggestion to come out of all of this imo.

Grading teams/schools to participate in a Divisional Comp for the following season would appear to be too problematic.

Logistically, it would be impossible to include all teams from all grades from all schools to participate in a Cup/Plate play off comp. Only the under age A teams and the 1sts could participate as I see it. It would be an opportunity for the best teams from GPS, CAS and ISA to play off to be the Champion teams in each grade.

It should be open for other Associations to also participate in future.
Whether the 1st XV Grand Final is put on a bigger stage and played as a curtain raiser to a major game; televised or not, it would still provide tremendous interest in and add another dimension to school rugby.

The remainder of the school teams could continue to play a two-round comp?
The Cup/Plate games could still be played as the main school game after the 2nd XVs play?
It's a bit sketchy at the moment but the concept is worth pursuing.

Personally, I would be disappointed to see the two-round CAS competition disappear but its a worthwhile trade off.

By following this suggested format, the individual Associations get to keep their cake and eat it too.

 

[Wristman]

So the pre season CAS/GPS trials are over and what have we learned.
Here's my 2 penny worth.

• Waverley have a highly competitive side but it appears to hinge on a few high class individuals. This throws into question the longer term prospect of them remaining competitive in a new competition. Injuries in todays game are inevitable, depth in a squad is critical and there needs to be a long term program to ensure consistency year after year.
• Knox have a large side that could compete every week but would likely be mid/low table in any combined comp. They have a deeper pool and are less vulnerable to injuries.
• The GPS competition looks like it will be highly competitive with all 6 teams showing pre season promise.
• Aside from Knox the CAS schools lack the volume of teams for school to school matches across all age groups.
• CAS supporters don't currently travel in great numbers to away matches. Whether this was simply because they were trials I don't know. But support seemed light. The lack of Waverley supporters for an historic match at Hunters hill was strange.

So from a GPS perspective a combined competition would provide a couple of new sides with whom to compete but no new level of competition that isn't offered by the current GPS competitors.
We lose a terrific 10 match home and away format for a bigger one match comp against a couple of extra sides.
More than in previous seasons the closeness within the GPS teams would make for a mouth watering competition under the old format.
An unbeaten team would be most unlikely, every match would be against a team that is, at the very least, highly capable of an upset. No match could be taken for granted, even by the strongest sides.
The experiment has proved little need for a revised format.
GPS rugby is alive and well.
The best CAS boys will still get to throw their 'hat in the ring' for NSW spots in the GPS/CAS trial.
In truth they are assisted by the fact that they will be more settled as a team with the majority of players coming from just 2 schools rather than 6.
What exactly do we gain?
Still struggling to work this out.