2017 Schools Rowing

[bigmac]

Totally agree. They are the worst offenders. In my opinion there is a difference between "stacking" (pulling rowers from higher crews and placing in lower-ranked crews to increase the % of wins) and the patented Kinross manoeuvre you describe. This means you pretend not to have a 1st VIII..or a 2nd VIII..but your 1st IV is good enough to row at Nationals and win plenty of other races. So Kinross top rowers ranked 1-4 compete against other schools' rowers ranked 17-20 and then claim "We beat the best Sydney schools" .

I'd love to see the tables turned. Imagine if Shore, Joeys Scotch and Nudgee all turned up to an all-comers non-GPS regatta and entered no 1st and 2nd VIII races, but instead put their top crews in as the fours. Then the 1st and 2nd Fours could have a go at the 3rd VIII race. A few records would be broken that day!

RNSW should implement the rule which IGSSA introduced (under pressure) a few years ago. If your rowing program has 12 or more rowers, you MUST enter a 1st eight. BAM!

The overall objective of fair racing is that you should be able to throw a blanket across the finishers. Blowouts either way dont do anyone any good. In my view coaches should make an objective assessment of their crews ability early in the racing season and place their crews accordingly. This might mean struggling crews eg high and grammar move down in order to compete effectively.
Maybe shore could field two first eights??

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[bigmac]

Totally agree. They are the worst offenders. In my opinion there is a difference between "stacking" (pulling rowers from higher crews and placing in lower-ranked crews to increase the % of wins) and the patented Kinross manoeuvre you describe. This means you pretend not to have a 1st VIII..or a 2nd VIII..but your 1st IV is good enough to row at Nationals and win plenty of other races. So Kinross top rowers ranked 1-4 compete against other schools' rowers ranked 17-20 and then claim "We beat the best Sydney schools" .

I'd love to see the tables turned. Imagine if Shore, Joeys Scotch and Nudgee all turned up to an all-comers non-GPS regatta and entered no 1st and 2nd VIII races, but instead put their top crews in as the fours. Then the 1st and 2nd Fours could have a go at the 3rd VIII race. A few records would be broken that day!

RNSW should implement the rule which IGSSA introduced (under pressure) a few years ago. If your rowing program has 12 or more rowers, you MUST enter a 1st eight. BAM!

Fair argument here but no point fielding a first eight if you have twelve rowers who aren't of the quality required to compete as a first eight.

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[behindtheshed]

The overall objective of fair racing is that you should be able to throw a blanket across the finishers. Blowouts either way dont do anyone any good. In my view coaches should make an objective assessment of their crews ability early in the racing season and place their crews accordingly. This might mean struggling crews eg high and grammar move down in order to compete effectively.
Maybe shore could field two first eights??

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Sorry, that can't be justified. Ask High or Grammar how far away that blanket is for them some years. Yet they plug away. The point is to motivate every school to expand and maintain an excellent rowing program. It's part of the head coach's job to increase the depth, thereby ensuring quality crews in every division.

If the talent wasn't so obviously there, I might feel different; but the results are a matter of public record.

 

[bigmac]

Sorry, that can't be justified. Ask High or Grammar how far away that blanket is for them some years. Yet they plug away. The point is to motivate every school to expand and maintain an excellent rowing program. It's part of the head coach's job to increase the depth, thereby ensuring quality crews in every division.

If the talent wasn't so obviously there, I might feel different; but the results are a matter of public record.

Are you saying the quality rowers are there in depth at grammar and high? Just waiting to be discovered? I suspect the school's priorities are focused elsewhere.
The results from 2016 seem to indicate a lack of depth. I am sure they are trying hard but the reality is they are currenly not competitive with a few exceptions. High did ok in the quads.
Maybe they can turn things around in 2017?

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[bigmac]

Kinross didn't enter a single GPS regatta last season. The NSW State Champs was the only regatta they entered a coxed four against GPS crews, but that was a Championship event. On the girls side, they raced in an eight in each regatta they attended and competed on a like for like basis, finishing 4th at the Nationals. I believe the boys programs at St Aug and Kinross each only have 40 boys in total participating from year 7-12. That would make it quite difficult to match up in an eight. I think you will find that their programs have a different focus and there is no requirement for them to match up in GPS events.

I agree it would be difficult to go in a straight match-up against gps crews. Spend time developing the programme first.

Kinross didn't enter a single GPS regatta last season. The NSW State Champs was the only regatta they entered a coxed four against GPS crews, but that was a Championship event. On the girls side, they raced in an eight in each regatta they attended and competed on a like for like basis, finishing 4th at the Nationals. I believe the boys programs at St Aug and Kinross each only have 40 boys in total participating from year 7-12. That would make it quite difficult to match up in an eight. I think you will find that their programs have a different focus and there is no requirement for them to match up in GPS events.

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[Lindommer]

Fellas, all of you who post on this thread: if your post refers or replies to the post immediately prior to yours, DON'T QUOTE IT! Rule 5. Don't know it? Look it up.

 

[SIRCWATCH]

Totally agree. They are the worst offenders. In my opinion there is a difference between "stacking" (pulling rowers from higher crews and placing in lower-ranked crews to increase the % of wins) and the patented Kinross manoeuvre you describe. This means you pretend not to have a 1st VIII..or a 2nd VIII..but your 1st IV is good enough to row at Nationals and win plenty of other races. So Kinross top rowers ranked 1-4 compete against other schools' rowers ranked 17-20 and then claim "We beat the best Sydney schools" .

I'd love to see the tables turned. Imagine if Shore, Joeys Scotch and Nudgee all turned up to an all-comers non-GPS regatta and entered no 1st and 2nd VIII races, but instead put their top crews in as the fours. Then the 1st and 2nd Fours could have a go at the 3rd VIII race. A few records would be broken that day!

RNSW should implement the rule which IGSSA introduced (under pressure) a few years ago. If your rowing program has 12 or more rowers, you MUST enter a 1st eight. BAM!

It would be great to see one of the dominant schools to give them a good spanking. I recall the likes of scots entering a IV at nationals however we all know they weren't the best performers this year and weren't a stand out. I believe shore entered a quad and dominated at NSW state championship. Maybe the boys heading to jrns in the 4 could have entered this year and shown those schools what joeys, shore and the rest of the GPS are actually capable of.

 

[Lindommer]

Super Rugby, what bit about not quoting the post immediately prior to yours don't you understand?

If you're not aware of Rule 5, here 'tis: http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/welcome-to-g-gr-history-and-rules.7341/

 

[LuvToRo]

Kinross didn't enter a single GPS regatta last season. The NSW State Champs was the only regatta they entered a coxed four against GPS crews, but that was a Championship event. On the girls side, they raced in an eight in each regatta they attended and competed on a like for like basis, finishing 4th at the Nationals. I believe the boys programs at St Aug and Kinross each only have 40 boys in total participating from year 7-12. That would make it quite difficult to match up in an eight. I think you will find that their programs have a different focus and there is no requirement for them to match up in GPS events.

Fair enough for last season but what about years previous, i would like to see the results from the 2014 season and i think you will find that Kinross entered in every GPS race at SIRC and St Augustines the same and one at Hen and Chicken.
St Augustines may only have 40 boys in total but at the start of last season they proved they could enter an VIII, but instead of being fair and copping a 6th or 7th every week they break it down to enter 1 four in the first 1st VI race and get the win.
If they want to come to GPS regattas they need to match the crews up because remember they are not part of the GPS i don't even know who allowed these two schools in particular to even enter in GPS regattas i know i wouldn't after the way they enter crews.

 

[Hard 10]

Luv to Ro, no that is not correct, these schools don't 'have' to match up at all. The only schools that 'have' to match up to GPS rules are the GPS schools. Sydney High try to match up as it is a condition of them to remain part of the GPS. The entries for GPS regattas are managed by the GPS rowing convenors not Rowing NSW. If non-GPS schools race in unfairly matched races, it is because the GPS rowing convenors have allowed them to enter in the race. I looked back through the 2014 regatta results as you suggested and could only find Kinross at one GPS regatta. The raced at the SRC regatta, Kings PLC and State Champs as well, but these are not GPS regattas. On another note, this is a 'Schools Rowing' thread, not a 'GPS-only' thread. It is annoying to see such small minded views being cast on the newer / non-GPS rowing schools.

I believe there should be a name change to AAGPS 2016/2017 Schools Rowing then, does anybody else support this view? After all that is all that we discuss. I honestly can't recall the last time this forum had an in-depth discussion over general 'schools rowing'.

 

[Geoff Geoff]

Slide rusher this is in response to you just now but also a general comment.

I look at it this way.

It becomes about aspiration and learning vs winning something at all costs.

You are correct in that those schools "don't have to match up at all"

You are correct and I pointed it out earlier the regattas the non GPS schools entered were open and those schools among others would be well within their rights to enter and the GPS schools really have no "right" to complain.

At issue here is not an us vs them GPS to other schools "small mindedness" as you seem to cast it. But rather the issue of the win at all costs "stack a crew, enter a division down' mentality this has been intermittently evident both within and outside the GPS. The potential negative effect this has on the development of rowing within individual schools and potentially across the board is the issue I feel offends people.

I feel you are Incorrect in your assertion that High or Grammer "try to match up as it is a condition of them to remain part of the GPS" these schools are culturally aspirational. That is they strive to be the best. They are in some ways 'the best" see academically Grammer and in recent sporting results High in cross country.

It is my view incumbent upon those in charge at various programs to improve their station within the bounds of like for like measures.

Stacking and entering a division down whilst not "illegal" distorts common measures of success and undermines development of better rowers across all schools whilst they are at school and then potentially their retention afterwards.

these things should be based on principle not litigated on minutiae.

you're off base on this one

 

[LuvToRo]

Luv to Ro, no that is not correct, these schools don't 'have' to match up at all. The only schools that 'have' to match up to GPS rules are the GPS schools. Sydney High try to match up as it is a condition of them to remain part of the GPS. The entries for GPS regattas are managed by the GPS rowing convenors not Rowing NSW. If non-GPS schools race in unfairly matched races, it is because the GPS rowing convenors have allowed them to enter in the race. I looked back through the 2014 regatta results as you suggested and could only find Kinross at one GPS regatta. The raced at the SRC regatta, Kings PLC and State Champs as well, but these are not GPS regattas. On another note, this is a 'Schools Rowing' thread, not a 'GPS-only' thread. It is annoying to see such small minded views being cast on the newer / non-GPS rowing schools.

You haven't told me anything i don't already know. Im saying they should have to match up. The GPS rowing convenor who i believe is from Grammar has obviously allowed these crews to enter but i don't understand why.

In regards to the 2014 regatta results in the 1st IV the Scots college regatta which was in November, although the results don't say so, Kinross won but were disqualified and you won't find them rowing in the heat because that was the reason they got disqualified, believe me i was there myself in the hail. Don't forget St Augustines entering in the Riverview Gold Cup. The other GPS regattas in February that you i think you will find were Junior only apart from the Sydney Boys High regatta which was the only regatta that St Augustines didn't enter in. I would also consider the Kings/PLC/RNSW regatta as a GPS regatta because not acknowledging this as not a GPS regatta would mean not acknowledging Kings as a GPS school. The school events are GPS and the U19 etc are obviously organised by RNSW. I think you will also find that the Shore 1st IV actually managed to beat the Kinross 1st IV at this regatta while St Augustines were drawn in another race. The Shore regatta was held at Iron Cove and was obviously extremely inconvenient to get to for St Augustines and Kinross. Its hard enough for every other school apart from Joeys.

I have to agree with Hard 10 on this one. It should be changed to AAGPS Rowing 2016/17. Call me a conservative and a traditionalist, which is what i really am but this is what it truly believe. I also can't recall the time we talked about general schools rowing i.e. Redlands, Cranbrook and whoever else. This forum is about HOTR and seeing none of these schools are ever going to be in the HOTR (over my dead body) we shouldn't discuss them on this forum. If you want to make another thread just for Schools rowing, fine I'm not stopping you and i am happy to acknowledge their success. But what i don't appreciate is when they intrude into the GPS.

 

[LuvToRo]

Geoff Geoff, stacking is a different topic than non-GPS schools entering a lower division race. Stacking is when a GPS school enters stronger rowers in say the 3rd IV instead of the 2nd IV. That is different from St Augustine's who might only have 8 rowers in year 10 and 11 and enter two fours instead of an eight. Or similarly, when TAS enter two fours at the Head of the River instead of an eight as they are in a developmental stage. To clarify, I am not an advocate of stacking.

Last time i checked TAS was still part of the GPS

 

[Geoff Geoff]

Geoff Geoff, stacking is a different topic than non-GPS schools entering a lower division race. Stacking is when a GPS school enters stronger rowers in say the 3rd IV instead of the 2nd IV. That is different from St Augustine's who might only have 8 rowers in year 10 and 11 and enter two fours instead of an eight. Or similarly, when TAS enter two fours at the Head of the River instead of an eight as they are in a developmental stage. To clarify, I am not an advocate of stacking.

I understand the difference. You miss the consensus in that they are very similar in outcome and effect.

Both have the same negative effect of shifting the goal posts, placing winning above development.

I learnt far more from coming 3rd in a National regatta than I ever did winning a JB sharp regatta.

 

[Geoff Geoff]

You haven't told me anything i don't already know. Im saying they should have to match up. The GPS rowing convenor who i believe is from Grammar has obviously allowed these crews to enter but i don't understand why.

In regards to the 2014 regatta results in the 1st IV the Scots college regatta which was in November, although the results don't say so, Kinross won but were disqualified and you won't find them rowing in the heat because that was the reason they got disqualified, believe me i was there myself in the hail. Don't forget St Augustines entering in the Riverview Gold Cup. The other GPS regattas in February that you i think you will find were Junior only apart from the Sydney Boys High regatta which was the only regatta that St Augustines didn't enter in. I would also consider the Kings/PLC/RNSW regatta as a GPS regatta because not acknowledging this as not a GPS regatta would mean not acknowledging Kings as a GPS school. The school events are GPS and the U19 etc are obviously organised by RNSW. I think you will also find that the Shore 1st IV actually managed to beat the Kinross 1st IV at this regatta while St Augustines were drawn in another race. The Shore regatta was held at Iron Cove and was obviously extremely inconvenient to get to for St Augustines and Kinross. Its hard enough for every other school apart from Joeys.

I have to agree with Hard 10 on this one. It should be changed to AAGPS Rowing 2016/17. Call me a conservative and a traditionalist, which is what i really am but this is what it truly believe. I also can't recall the time we talked about general schools rowing i.e. Redlands, Cranbrook and whoever else. This forum is about HOTR and seeing none of these schools are ever going to be in the HOTR (over my dead body) we shouldn't discuss them on this forum. If you want to make another thread just for Schools rowing, fine I'm not stopping you and i am happy to acknowledge their success. But what i don't appreciate is when they intrude into the GPS.

I think the discussion this topic has generated is entirely because of it being "schools rowing" and there is value in keeping it open.

these things can be argued on the merits. Don't stifle the speech, Its a very boring discussion if you agree with everyone.

 

[LuvToRo]

Ah yes, the Scots regatta. That was the one where Kinross entered a 1st VIII, just as we all think they should. There were supposed to be two races in the VIII. Kinross travelled some distance to attend. On the day the GPS convenors cancelled the 2nd race and Kinross asked if they could get another race as they had just travelled a long way to go there. They were allowed to race by invitation in the four race, once again, a decision that would be made by the GPS rowing convenors.

In wonder why they were disqualified from that race then hmmm

 

[LuvToRo]

I have come on this thread to discuss the topic of schools rowing, as that is the name of the thread. Had it been a GPS thread then talking about non-GPS schools would be out of place. You have come on to a general schools rowing thread and are trying to hijack it to only talk about GPS. I would suggest you go and create a separate GPS Rowing thread. I will come and join that one two and be part of both, and you can just be part of one.

Then why has all the discussion only been about GPS schools but this conversation.

 

[Interested Academic]

Then why has all the discussion only been about GPS schools but this conversation.

Just looking through the thread.

Seems those with Kinross Sympathy, now involved with GPS.

its all there clear as day.

 

[LuvToRo]

Were they disqualified?

Yes because i remember looking at the results straight after the race as it was the last race of the day because of a hail storm and it stated Kinross had won, but there was obviously a protest placed by Shore or one of the other crews because when checked again later they were not classified as winning

 

[Interested Academic]

Incorrect.

pray tell