All these Aus local derbies ...................... better?

[stoff]

I would call it the Maqueen Trophy named after somebody who has coached 3 Super teams, coached the Wallabies to a RWC win, was the first coach to get his team into the S12 final, and was also an IRB Coach of the Year.

Might need to wait a few years for Rod's run to come to an end. As a Rebels supporter I don't like the idea of Rod having to present himself his own trophy every year. Remember he is now the coach of the only Super Rugby franchise to have never lost a match (well at least he is this week).

 

[PaarlBok]

The kak part of S15 rugby for SA per Jake White.

http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/co...6&Sharks-and-Stormers-could-meet-eight-times-

Sharks and Stormers could meet eight times
If you sit back and examine the format of the new Super 15, one of the things that stands out for me is that the series is not ideally suited to South African rugby.

14 January 2011 | Jake White



That may sound a bit harsh, but you have to consider where the roots of competition in this country come from.

We might have gained re-entry to international competition and won the World Cup twice as well as got deeply involved in the Tri-Nations and Super rugby, but in terms of competition that keeps the local fans coming back for more, you can trace it all back to the years of isolation.

Back then, the Currie Cup was the pinnacle of what we were about – certainly for this generation – and remains an important part of what makes the game tick in this country.

Yes, they have a tough provincial competition in New Zealand and Australia also have theirs, but, for me, nothing compares with the intensity and feeling of the Currie Cup.

A big part of this is the needle that has always existed in the big derby games, the head-to-head meetings between traditional rivals has got the players coming out and playing on a different level and stirred the fans.

When you take that out of the equation, something very special goes missing from the overall make-up of the game in South Africa.

And, if you think about it – especially with the Tri-Series between the Stormers, Lions and Sharks at Newlands later this month – it is not beyond the bounds of probability that the Sharks and Stormers could meet eight times this season with the build-up matches in Cape Town, the home and away of the opening phases of Super 15 and the Currie Cup if both sides go all the way.

Quite simply, that’s far too many derbies. It blunts the needle if you like, taking the intensity out of it for both the players and the supporters.

It presents something of a problem for the provincial coaches and the Springbok coaching staff. With that much competition, the guys with a chance of making it to the World Cup will be playing out of their skins to prove a point. It’s impossible to stop.

Just think about the loose forwards as an example. There’s Heinrich Brussouw versus Schalk Burger for a start and then players like Pierre Spies, Duane Vermeulen, Ryan Kankowski, Willem Alberts and Keegan Daniel all giving it everything.

None of them are going to give anything but all they’ve got. From personal experience, there were times when several players were fighting for one or two spots, you had to hold them back in Springbok training sessions.

The very competitive nature of South African rugby sides – and the first part of the Super 15 – could just raise the tempo of how hard our sides go at one another and how often a side to all intents and purposes out of contention, pulls off a win that really hurts a side who are still in the mix.

But there are some positives about warm-up matches like the Tri-Series. It offers a coach the chance to try out new combinations and, if he is allowed to rotate players, experiment with certain things, without giving too much away ... or it costs his side.

What must be guarded against though is a coach playing a total B-side combination. You can argue as much as you like about looking at the depth available, but it is often the case that the coach will never play that combination in a match situation.

But what a coach really doesn’t want, no matter who he turns out on the day, is a side which leaks points and gives away soft tries.

Nor does he want a side that defends negatively and keeps up being blown up by the referee.
This is also a warm-up for the refs and a bad impression at the start that is likely to have the referees talking among one another may stretch across the competition.

No, I’m not in favour of too many derbies, because you have to remember that the coaches want to win just as much as the players do and all it does is introduce extra pressures.

But then pressure is very much a part of top rugby, so I’m going to pour myself a long whisky and soda highball and drink to the success of South African Super 15 sides.

 

[Reddy!]

As a Reds fan, I'm looking forward to beating all of the Australian teams more than once.

But seriously, the more games between Australian teams means more TV news coverage (no one gives a rats arse if the Brumbies beat the Lions in South Africa), newspaper coverage, fans through the gates, more rivalries (just think, if the Reds play the Waratahs a couple of times it might actually be able to compete with the State of Origin). It's all big ticks in my books.

So will the rugby be good? That's entirely up to the teams, coaches, players and refs on the day.

 

[Gnostic]

Paarl there is an obvious answer there for SA Rugby. Double the Conference clashes between the S15 Provinces as Currie Cup games. If anything it would add even more to the clashes as the teams know that Two competitions are being played for. I know there are players drafted in from elsewhere to play in the Super province teams but surely the SARU put some thought into these types of things before signing up to the S15 agreement. If they didn't and this is just becoming apparent you would have to seriously question the competence of the people at SARU who do the due diligence on those sort of contracts.

 

[PaarlBok]

Paarl there is an obvious answer there for SA Rugby. Double the Conference clashes between the S15 Provinces as Currie Cup games. If anything it would add even more to the clashes as the teams know that Two competitions are being played for. I know there are players drafted in from elsewhere to play in the Super province teams but surely the SARU put some thought into these types of things before signing up to the S15 agreement. If they didn't and this is just becoming apparent you would have to seriously question the competence of the people at SARU who do the due diligence on those sort of contracts.

The funny thing of this all, hope WJ copy here, SA still attrack the most supporters to the matches and by far the most TV viewers , giving Sanzar the biggest financial boost from the supporters.

Saw now the Vodacom Cup Competition (not included in Jake Whites figures) have been change from a north and south section to a single round including Namibia and the Argentinia lot. Add the Varsity Cup and you get the full SA monty.

Our lot grow up with Boland vs WP or Bulls vs Sharks or Leapards vs Lions and by the look we cant get enough of this. Its been going for over 100 years.

 

[PaarlBok]

By the way Super Rugby and CC rugby have a huge differense. Super franchises aint the traditional CC province. Changing the CC province will kill our rugby. NZ is currently doing this and they'll pay a heftic price for this.

 

[Lee Grant]

PB

Thanks for posting that Jake article. It's what I would expect any SAffer to write about the situation. Jake was dissembling a bit because even most of we Aussie tragics know that the Sharks CCup team is not quite the same as the Sharks Super team and the Blue Bulls are not the same as the Super Rugby Bulls. Nevertheless we can see why you okes were against more domestic games from the start.

What I didn't expect was that the Kiwis sided with Oz. IIRR it came out later that the NPC, or whatever they call it from year to year, was too expensive to run and they, like us, needed a bit more of a cash flow.

This all begs the question of why the SARB did not exercise their right of veto in SANZAR on the matter. Were they after a bit more money too?

 

[Gnostic]

Not to be offensive Paarl, and I'm sure some will take it that way, but you are talking about a country with more than double Oz's Population and one which has no real competition for the sports dollar apart from Soccer.

It is not the business of the ARU or NZRU to tell the SARU how to run their domestic comp, but they have every right to stick their oar in with regard to the Super Rugby and 3/4 N. The money making competition has to take precedence and that means long term it is Super Rugby and 3N (4N).

I also doubt very much if we returned to the "old days" and the ABs and Boks were selected from their respective provincial competitions without the higher level competition of the Super Rugby comp. if they would maintain their dominance over the NH teams. I know for sure that Oz would not be able to. Lastly without the Super Comp and 3/4N how many of the best players would remain in NZ or SA to play in those competitions? There would not be an elite player left in Oz without them that is for sure. Maybe the NZRU hasn't come out and said it but the NPC is a lower level comp to the Super series and as such it may well fade somewhat.

Perhaps a better idea would have been to run a Conference series from the start with the Currie Cup and NPC in those countries determining which provinces progresses to Super Rugby and winning their competition at the same time. In Oz we have only ever really had the NSW V Qld clash annually as the level below Test matches so the NSW, Qld and ACT would always qualify for Super Rugby. But again with this idea would come the inability for the Oz teams to retain much of their talent, certainly enough to remain competitive.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I suspect the Kiwis know that deep down that they couldn't survive on the the NPC alone. It's effectively a semi-pro competition now. With the money on offer up North, Super rugby is their ticket to survival, just like it is for us. The Saffas are the wild card and probably the ones who stand to benefit least from this, but they don't have the issues that their SANZAR partners have.

 

[Gnostic]

Thats just it TBH, long term I don't think they could survive on the CC. When they were isolated yes it was indeed the be all and end all. Now the market and country has opened up would the CC be able to retain the best players if there was no Super Rugby or 3N? I doubt it very much. The truly elite would be playing Heiniken Cup and still the CC would be downgraded because of it. It may take longer and the changes will not be as dramatic as those of the NPC but in another 10 years time I doubt that the CC will be as important as it is today. The large population will support it for longer but as we see a generational change with those who didn't know or can't recall the isolation of SA some of that partisanship seen in the CC support will get transferred to the respective Super Provinces and the CC teams will become true feeders and stepping stones to the fully professional level.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

You're probably right Gnostic. They can point to the strength of the CC right now (like the Kiwis have with the NPC), but in 5-10 years probably not.

 

[PaarlBok]

This all begs the question of why the SARB did not exercise their right of veto in SANZAR on the matter. Were they after a bit more money too?

They surely dont had the balls. I think the CC will move in the Vodacom Cups place (because of the time frame) and will be a degraded competition with time.

Pretty sure the current S15 will be the S18 in a year or two's time. Super Rugby will never be the same as from this year. Pretty sure the current for mat is shitty. Teams dont play the same opposition and the way the knock out teams is decided isnt a fair one. We'll see tpwards the end of the season the amount of bitch fighting that will happen with this format. Think a S18 with a two section, home and away and top three/two goes from each section going into knock out will be much better.

@Gnostic dont let SA's total population % get to you, its more about the rugby culture in SA much stronger compare to Oz.

 

[Blue]

Paarl there is an obvious answer there for SA Rugby. Double the Conference clashes between the S15 Provinces as Currie Cup games. If anything it would add even more to the clashes as the teams know that Two competitions are being played for. I know there are players drafted in from elsewhere to play in the Super province teams but surely the SARU put some thought into these types of things before signing up to the S15 agreement. If they didn't and this is just becoming apparent you would have to seriously question the competence of the people at SARU who do the due diligence on those sort of contracts.

The Currie Cup teams and Super Teams are commercially different entities. In some cases they have different contract structures. The CC is a competition with over 100 years history. Watering it down is not the answer.

The Currie Cup involves other teams that donlt play Super Rugby.

What you suggest is not going to happen (and shouldn't). Look I have said it many times. It's great for Aussie rugby. Exactly what the doctor ordered. SANZAR has delivered a local competition which the ARU could not do on its own so for Australia this is perfect.

For SA rugby the Super 15, its format, and large number of meanignless fixtures has absolutely no value whatsoever and I think the TV ratings will be the ultimate proof of this.

I really hope I am proven wrong but this is the first time in the history of Super Rugby where I feel totally underwhelmed about the season ahead.

 

[fatprop]

The Currie Cup teams and Super Teams are commercially different entities. In some cases they have different contract structures. The CC is a competition with over 100 years history. Watering it down is not the answer.

The Currie Cup involves other teams that donlt play Super Rugby.

What you suggest is not going to happen (and shouldn't). Look I have said it many times. It's great for Aussie rugby. Exactly what the doctor ordered. SANZAR has delivered a local competition which the ARU could not do on its own so for Australia this is perfect.

For SA rugby the Super 15, its format, and large number of meanignless fixtures has absolutely no value whatsoever and I think the TV ratings will be the ultimate proof of this.

I really hope I am proven wrong but this is the first time in the history of Super Rugby where I feel totally underwhelmed about the season ahead.

I think the "meaningless" factor is down to having a number of sides who have been rubbish and struggled to tour effectively

 

[Blue]

Not to be offensive Paarl, and I'm sure some will take it that way, but you are talking about a country with more than double Oz's Population and one which has no real competition for the sports dollar apart from Soccer.

It is not the business of the ARU or NZRU to tell the SARU how to run their domestic comp, but they have every right to stick their oar in with regard to the Super Rugby and 3/4 N. The money making competition has to take precedence and that means long term it is Super Rugby and 3N (4N).

I also doubt very much if we returned to the "old days" and the ABs and Boks were selected from their respective provincial competitions without the higher level competition of the Super Rugby comp. if they would maintain their dominance over the NH teams. I know for sure that Oz would not be able to. Lastly without the Super Comp and 3/4N how many of the best players would remain in NZ or SA to play in those competitions? There would not be an elite player left in Oz without them that is for sure. Maybe the NZRU hasn't come out and said it but the NPC is a lower level comp to the Super series and as such it may well fade somewhat.

Perhaps a better idea would have been to run a Conference series from the start with the Currie Cup and NPC in those countries determining which provinces progresses to Super Rugby and winning their competition at the same time. In Oz we have only ever really had the NSW V Qld clash annually as the level below Test matches so the NSW, Qld and ACT would always qualify for Super Rugby. But again with this idea would come the inability for the Oz teams to retain much of their talent, certainly enough to remain competitive.

40 of the 40 (whatever) million don't give a toss about rugby buit at least thre is no NRL or AFL to worry about.

Lee: Exactly. Money. SARU had to compromise to get the money. It is as simple as that. Where would a veto have left them? It was never an option.

Gnostic: You make valid points but it doesn't make a difference that I and most SA fans I know think it sucks and feel very passionate about the CC retaining its place.

 

[Blue]

I think the "meaningless" factor is down to having a number of sides who have been rubbish and struggled to tour effectively

Maybe you don't think so but most people outside Australia consider and extra Brumbies / Force bore-a-thon to be totally meaningless.

And I had the misfortune of attending Reds Waratahs matches in the lats three years. I have already decided which blunt object I will use to poke myself in the eye this year. It will be far more entertaining. And hey, I get to do both eyes and both ends of the stick. Bonus! Thanks Sanzar!

 

[barbarian]

Yes but Blue I can say exactly the same thing about games between the Sharks and Stormers. To be blunt I couldn't give a flying fuck, nor do I expect you to care about Brumbies/Force or Highlanders/Chiefs for that matter.

But the conference system is not designed to appeal to rugby fans in other countries. You may be dreading an extra Tahs/Reds game, but I can tell you that almost 100% of those here are chomping at the bit to see an extra game. I am sure the same goes for Sharks fans about an extra match against the Stormers. Whilst it may draw almost no TV audience outside the home country, I can guarantee the stands will be chocked full, and there will be far more media attention.

The situation for SA Rugby fans is hard. But I think a relatively minor hit to the Currie Cup is a fair price to pay for the additional millions of $$ that will now be filtering through the ranks of SA Rugby. And I know about the hundreds of years of tradition, but this is 2011. The Shute Shield has heaps of history too, but we move forward, and the game is better for it.

 

[fatprop]

Maybe you don't think so but most people outside Australia consider and extra Brumbies / Force bore-a-thon to be totally meaningless.

And I had the misfortune of attending Reds Waratahs matches in the lats three years. I have already decided which blunt object I will use to poke myself in the eye this year. It will be far more entertaining. And hey, I get to do both eyes and both ends of the stick. Bonus! Thanks Sanzar!

Two different things to me, I started this thread with the belief that these derby games can be pretty shit as the sides tighten up and play not to lose. But the local games in prime time are the ratings winners in all countries and they have been doubled to make the local broadcasters happier.

As for SA rugby's "meh" attitude to the thing on a whole, the Bulls supporters seem to be enjoying the games over the last few years, but they are winning - funny that

 

[Lindommer]

SAf rugby shouldn't adopt too much of a dog-in-the-manger attitude over the new SupeRugby format: the extra money'll come in handy keeping a few Saffers from going to the NH. At the moment SAf have by far the largest number of expats running around in Europe and Japan, we've even got a few of them here in Oz. Doesn't the prospect of continually losing players to NH clubs concern SAf rugby supporters? Rabbitting on how SAf makes more money than the other two from TV broadcasting, etc, doesn't really wash when what you've got isn't enough to keep the players you'd like to keep.

The French clubs will always have the most money of any rugby club worldwide, but if a bigger competition in the SH with a commensurate increase in revenue allows our three countries to reduce the leakage of players northwards, I'm all for it. Australians don't expect NZ and SAf will solve our problems competing against league and AFL but we don't expect our SANZAR partners to say "that's your problem, nothing to do with us, fix it yourself". We, in Australia, recognise NZ has some problems on the financial front keeping their three tier domestic competition going, and developing professional rugby to the 15 team SupeRugby level will produce some more income to alleviate that problem. You help us, we help you. Similarly, bringing Argentina into the SH fold can only be good for the development of professional rugby. Are SAf going to bitch about the Argies draining money from the SANZAR pool? They're going to contribute bugger all to our bank accounts. We're all in the same boat in SH rugby, we sink or swim together.

 

[RugbyFuture]

As I've said before anyway, the competition will split into three clear entities with the same teams as the currie cup, itm cup and wherever australia goes, its all structured that way. Particularly when the EP Kings come in for the saffas its only 2 short of the premier division.