All these Aus local derbies ...................... better?

[Bullrush]

apart from Buenos Aires, theres tucuman and Cordoba, then two others for fill, im sure Ive posted my map and proposal before.

Argentina may not produce 5 quality teams, but neither does it seem do Australia (force, reds), New Zealand (chiefs, highlanders) or South Africa (cheetahs, lions)

Guarantee that all the team you've mentioned would be better than the bottom 3 from Argentina

 

[RugbyFuture]

with a proffesional structure in place?

stop being cynical, it is possible with good development systems.

 

[farva]

They have about 100k players, so you think would be able to field 5 competitive teams.
But from a financial point of view, they may struggle with 5.

 

[Bullrush]

What you call cynicism, I call reality.

You're talking about a country who ranks 8th in the world putting up the same number of players as the countries who rank 1, 2 and 3.

The NZ Maori would regularly beat the Pumas - a team which is selected from the players left over after the All Blacks have taken their 1st choices. We've seen teams from very strong rugby countries struggle to compete consistently (or at all) - the ones you mentioned - and you think Argentina will have enough players to fill 5 teams?!?!?!

It doesn't matter how 'professional' your set-up is if you just don't have the cattle. They would have to spend BIG bucks to to compete a la Toulon.

You're kidding yourself mate.

 

[RugbyFuture]

so, a country with the same situation in terms of player numbers as australia, and who consistently rank in the top ten nations in the world whilst they're completely amateur have no chance of emulating australia's success with adapted management structures and national selection rules , is what you're saying? particularly a nation who are known for their national pride and willingness to play for their national teams?

 

[barbarian]

I understand what you are saying RF, but you are drastically oversimplifying the process from amateurism to professionalism. It's all well and good to have 'adapted management structures' and 'national selection rules', but you neglect to mention the thing that drives the whole show - $$$. There simply isn't enough cash to fund the game in Argentina to the level it needs to be funded to compete in a Super style comp. Yes there is passion, but that only counts for so much.

I am not saying it cannot happen, and I honestly hope it does. But to think it would happen within the next 20-30 years is wishful thinking to say the least.

 

[RugbyFuture]

been 15 years for australia, with nothing close to the help the irb are providing

 

[TOCC]

Definitely oversimplifying...

Professional rugby is a different beast to what it was 15years ago...
To put it plainly, in 1996 there may have only been a 20% difference between amateurism and professionalism, now it's more like 50-60%.

The coaching standards, development systems and physical conditioning doesn't just happen overnight, the rest of the world has a 15 year headstart in these areas now, it will take a lot work for Argentina to make that step. Whilst having some of there foreign based players return home, it's unlikely they will have enough return to fill 2 teams, let alone 5..

 

[liquor box]

They would have to spend BIG bucks to to compete a la Toulon.

You're kidding yourself mate.

Would there be anything to stop an Argie Super franchise from not selecting players who qualify for the national team and just buying a great team? Why not do a toulon and buy a great team?

Maybe providing a competitive team will drive the locals to develop even more talent.

 

[TOCC]

to put it in perspective, this is a article from www.rugbyheaven.co.nz looking at the differences between All Blacks and NFL player.... but there are interesting points in here regarding this topic

No-one knows this better than long-time All Blacks strength and conditioning coach Nic Gill.

His current stable includes the hulking frames of Sonny Bill Williams, Ma'a Nonu, Hosea Gear, Isaia Toeava and Brad Thorn.

Gill's been involved for the past decade in designing programmes to allow optimum performance on the field and perhaps it's no coincidence that he's cradling a giant plastic bottle of the muscle-building product Creatine as he sits down to discuss the advent of the "super athlete" in rugby union.

"When I started 10 years ago the rugby players couldn't tolerate the training because they would just fall over," he explains.
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"They had no training history, no background. Now we have athletes that have four, five, six, seven years of training behind them before they get here and they can handle it and can start producing better performances.

"That's the difference. Guys are getting educated a lot earlier in New Zealand. Our high performance programme and development programme through the country is producing kids with great knowledge, great work ethic and great habits.

"If they are motivated they now have the tools to go on to become better athletes."

And bigger ones.

"If you look at our backline now, the trend over the last, I don't know, 14 years, since we've been professional, the average-size backs would have been 85kg. Now our backline averages about 100kg and they are running faster.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/4531008/All-Blacks-measure-up-for-American-football/

Whilst on a international level Argentina are still competitive, thats because they have embraced there players been developed by foreign clubs rather then the development tools in Argentina.

 

[Bruce Ross]

to put it in perspective, this is a article from www.rugbyheaven.co.nz looking at the differences between All Blacks and NFL player.... but there are interesting points in here regarding this topic

There is an absolute howler in that article, with writer Toby Robson stating:

"The NFL record for the 40m dash stands at 4.24sec, a mark shared by Atlanta Falcons wide receiver Rondel Melendez in 1999 and running back Chris Johnson of the Tennessee Titans in 2008.

"Rugby is not great at providing such stats, but Sosene Anesi is said to have posted the fastest 40m recorded in New Zealand rugby with 4.53sec, while Joe Rokocoko once clocked 4.66sec."

You would expect - or maybe not - a sports journalist to know that American footballers run "the 40 yard dash", not 40 metres. A yard is equal to 0.9144 metres so a direct conversion of the Melendez-Johnson time would equate to 4.49sec, This puts them 4 hundredths of a second faster than Anesi's reported time, not virtually half a second or 11 per cent faster!

 

[ACSC]

Best leave the north americans to their own development, eventually they would grow together. hopefully with mexico as their italy.

Maybe not such a far fetched idea RF.

A bit of trivia for you. My 14 yo nephew who lives in San Antonio, TX and spent his summer holidays with me in Brissie. I took him to a few games at Chipsy Wood Oval ( QC (Quade Cooper) even made a cameo for 1 game), a West's game and of course the Springboks at Suncorp. He was totally hooked and since getting home is now a member of the San Antonio RFC and is about to play his 1st game for them in the Texas high school league. For those whose aren't sure about US geography Texas is crammed full of Mexicans as it borders Mexico.
PS he is still playing gridiron but might be able show some his friends the light.

 

[ACSC]

Rememebered the article about rocket from a few weeks ago where according to Reds Head Performance Coach Damian Marsh “Everyone uses different testing systems but Rod’s max velocity was 10m/sec. That’s 36km/hr. That probably makes him the quickest man in rugby and definitely the quickest I’ve seen.”

http://www.qru.com.au/ArticleDetails/tabid/526/ArticleID/848/Default.aspx

The article does not mention his actual 40m time, does anyone know what this was cause based on these numbers, even allowing for the accelaration phase, I would have a few bob on him against the kiwis. Two games this year and who wouldn't like to him and Lochie Turner with the afterburners on, one going for the line with the other in pursuit.

 

[Lindommer]

Would there be anything to stop an Argie Super franchise from...buying a great team? Why not do a Toulon and buy a great team?

$$$ The Argentinean peso's worth about bugger all.

 

[liquor box]

$$$ The Argentinean peso's worth about bugger all.

Is there an argentinian Clive Palmer?

 

[Bullrush]

so, a country with the same situation in terms of player numbers as australia, and who consistently rank in the top ten nations in the world whilst they're completely amateur have no chance of emulating australia's success with adapted management structures and national selection rules , is what you're saying? particularly a nation who are known for their national pride and willingness to play for their national teams?

That's correct. The number of players isn't a good stat to go from. I think Australia has more registered players that NZ does but you guys have only just now entered your 5th team - a team heavily relying on foreigners when compared with the rest of the comp.

And who cares how willing people are to play for their country? Whoop.de.doo. You could say the same for most countries in almost any sport. But pride and willingness alone doesn't bring success. If that point held any real weight, Argentina would surely have won a RWC by now? Or at least consistently rank in the Top 3? Top 5?

 

[fatprop]

That's correct. The number of players isn't a good stat to go from. I think Australia has more registered players that NZ does but you guys have only just now entered your 5th team - a team heavily relying on foreigners when compared with the rest of the comp.

And who cares how willing people are to play for their country? Whoop.de.doo. You could say the same for most countries in almost any sport. But pride and willingness alone doesn't bring success. If that point held any real weight, Argentina would surely have won a RWC by now? Or at least consistently rank in the Top 3? Top 5?

NZ has first choice essentially of the best athletes in the country. It may be only 4 mil, but it is probably the only country in the world that enjoys this.

Aus rugby competes with two other codes averagely. Argentina is in the same boat, whilst SA gets first choice of the white South Africans essentially. That is the big difference. Bigger populations, sure, but also many more viable sporting options for any potential athlete

 

[Bullrush]

NZ has first choice essentially of the best athletes in the country. It may be only 4 mil, but it is probably the only country in the world that enjoys this.

Aus rugby competes with two other codes averagely. Argentina is in the same boat, whilst SA gets first choice of the white South Africans essentially. That is the big difference. Bigger populations, sure, but also many more viable sporting options for any potential athlete

Completely agree....which is why using the number of players a country may have registered isn't a great indication of how good they are at actually playing rugby.

 

[Slim 293]

That's correct. The number of players isn't a good stat to go from. I think Australia has more registered players that NZ does but you guys have only just now entered your 5th team - a team heavily relying on foreigners when compared with the rest of the comp.

And who cares how willing people are to play for their country? Whoop.de.doo. You could say the same for most countries in almost any sport. But pride and willingness alone doesn't bring success. If that point held any real weight, Argentina would surely have won a RWC by now? Or at least consistently rank in the Top 3? Top 5?

To be fair... Argentina did finish well ahead of the All Blacks last RWC...

 

[barbarian]

Is there an argentinian Clive Palmer?

You mean Clive Palmero?