Australian Rugby / RA

[Mr Wobbly]

OK, so i checked through last night (not the first time) and can find ITM, plenty of it. But nothing for this weekends round of CC. I cant be looking in the right place - any tips?

You can do a search for CC through the IQ and add games to record, provided your IQ is hooked up to the Internet.

 

[Quick Hands]

Good video.
But, the final takeaway message is a bit simplistic, on face value. Yes, we had teams that won championships in the past, but to sheet that all home to Club rugby per se is making some assumptions.
I'd agree with the 1984-6 Wallabies and 1991 RWC winners - amateur era when club rugby was mostly it.
But since professionalism, I'm not sure it is that simple. We had a group of players from 1998-2002 that were, in some ways, outliers, in that we had so many greats at once. Really not seen before or since. Plus, it was the era of a smaller Super Rugby tournament that was uniformly better quality. Plus, at the top level, we had stolen a march on the rest of the world with coaching / training / defensive techniques, where we have steadily been surpassed since. A lot of factors made the Wallabies great then. And Aus rugby rested on its laurels.
Yes, I totally agree that we must fix the base - schools, clubs and some in-between comp. I'd like to see fewer than 65% of all pro players being from the Shute Shield, which would mean the base was growing everywhere. Whenever I hear SS heavyweights talking about this, I can't help feeling that their scope is perhaps too narrow.

Undoubtedly we need to expand the base out of Sydney.

I've said for quite a while on these threads that from my observations that Rugby WA was doing the best job of any state RU in expanding the base. They are starting to produce a flow of players into higher levels. Which makes the ARU decision re the Force worse than it otherwise might be.

 

[cyclopath]

Undoubtedly we need to expand the base out of Sydney.

I've said for quite a while on these threads that from my observations that Rugby WA was doing the best job of any state RU in expanding the base. They are starting to produce a flow of players into higher levels. Which makes the ARU decision re the Force worse than it otherwise might be.

Indeed.

 

[Slim 293]

I certainly wasn't expecting you to be thanking him for anything given your well known hostility towards Sydney club rugby.

I don't have any hostility towards Sydney club rugby........... only people like Papworth who believes it's the centre of the rugby universe, and cry "grassroots" when he really only cares about his own self interests.

 

[Quick Hands]

Sigh.

 

[dru]

I don't have any hostility towards Sydney club rugby..... only people like Papworth who believes it's the centre of the rugby universe, and cry "grassroots" when he really only cares about his own self interests.

Look a bit more, Papworth, Dwyer, Poidevin, Begg the SRU list goes on. If you can find some space for some why not the others? And whatever you think, they currently run the most effective and successful rugby comp in Aus.

Sigh.

<bemusement>

QH I think you will have seen me swinging around over these months. I now consider myself well and truly on the Papworth bandwagon. I'll be starting with Rams, presuming he doesn't give credence to fatprops "pissing inside the tent" possibility, I'll follow to the Woodies.

That said. Maaate. There have been some outrageous statements from the SRU mouthpieces that seek to place themselves ahead of the rest of Australian rugby. Closing the Force was a conversation started here along the lines of Western Force > Western Sydney.

Slim. Right now "the enemy of my enemy" is my friend. I am right now completely happy with the concept of Papworth, Poidevin, Begg, Dwyer, hell add in Alan Jones, as the new ARU board. OK I'm being a touch silly, but I'm being completely straight face to suggest that this would be a better board. Not the best board, but better.

I'd also suggest that just as the SRU has always added in QPR into it's thinking, they may well have cottoned on to the fact that the third largest club scene is WA.

 

[Slim 293]

Slim. Right now "the enemy of my enemy" is my friend. I am right now completely happy with the concept of Papworth, Poidevin, Begg, Dwyer, hell add in Alan Jones, as the new ARU board. OK I'm being a touch silly, but I'm being completely straight face to suggest that this would be a better board. Not the best board, but better.

Different sides of the same coin.........

If Pulver, Clyne et al are currently the problem, these guys are definitely not the solution.

 

[dru]

Different sides of the same coin...

If Pulver, Clyne et al are currently the problem, these guys are definitely not the solution.

No.

Neither Pulver nor Clyne have any dieect connection to the grass roots. Ditto everyone else on the board bar the departed Stooke. Papworth and his SRU cronies are deeply enmeshed in their grass roots, roots that go down to age groups and local involvement.

The past issue (for me) is that they haven't stated value in other grass roots - Subbies, country, states outside NSW with the exception of QPR. This is changing, if anything they seem to be seeking connection with the disaffected in WA.

It's not even slightly the same coin as Pulver/Clyne.

 

[cyclopath]

No.

Neither Pulver nor Clyne have any dieect connection to the grass roots. Ditto everyone else on the board bar the departed Stooke. Papworth and his SRU cronies are deeply enmeshed in their grass roots, roots that go down to age groups and local involvement.

The past issue (for me) is that they haven't stated value in other grass roots - Subbies, country, states outside NSW with the exception of QPR. This is changing, if anything they seem to be seeking connection with the disaffected in WA.

It's not even slightly the same coin as Pulver/Clyne.

True, but the deep problem, whichever way you look, is self-interest. Too many stakeholders in Aus rugby demonstrate this, and guys like Papworth, Poidevin, Dwyer and Jones are, in this regard, no different. It's just a different perspective. The current model of "top-down" has failed, but a simplistic "Fix the bottom and it all comes good" approach, which is the gist of what some of these guys seem to be saying ignores the complexities and needs of a strong provincial and International professional structure, particularly the difficulties of financing the whole shebang.
To get a try global philosophy in place for Aus rugby, the whole bloody thing needs re-structuring. And the real sticking point is the absolute obstruction from the big players like NSWRU and QRU to look at any significant change they perceive as eroding their influence at a national level.
I know you were semi-joking, but installing a bunch of these guys as a large part of a board, is not the answer for Australian rugby.

 

[wamberal]

The situation we find ourselves in today is the result of a lot of actions and inactions. When we look at various trends, it is pretty obvious that virtually all our metrics have been heading in the wrong direction for a long while.


There is no simple answer. There is probably no complex set of answers, either.


We would all like to see a deux ex machina, but it ain't going to happen. The best we can hope for is that good decisions are made, all stakeholders decide that it is better to stick together than die separately, and incremental improvement begins.


We will see more dark days, let's hope we will also see some glimmers of hope.

 

[dru]

True, but the deep problem, whichever way you look, is self-interest.

This.

To get a try global philosophy in place for Aus rugby, the whole bloody thing needs re-structuring.

Complete and total agreement from me. But short of armageddon, how do you see this happening (noting your statement above).

I know you were semi-joking, but installing a bunch of these guys as a large part of a board, is not the answer for Australian rugby.

Yes I was semi-joking. Semi. I am dead set certain the SRU guys would be a step forward over this lot. Give me a couple of SRU guys, Stooke, a finance guy NOT a banker, Hodge as player rep, think about Josephine perhaps, and NO-ONE with a CV of Board experience, then an experienced sporting administrator at CEO.

It's the best I have to offer, in the mean time I'd take Papworth as dictator. (OK I'll add the obligatory )

 

[Quick Hands]

This.



Complete and total agreement from me. But short of armageddon, how do you see this happening (noting your statement above).



Yes I was semi-joking. Semi. I am dead set certain the SRU guys would be a step forward over this lot. Give me a couple of SRU guys, Stooke, a finance guy NOT a banker, Hodge as player rep, think about Josephine perhaps, and NO-ONE with a CV of Board experience, then an experienced sporting administrator at CEO.

It's the best I have to offer, in the mean time I'd take Papworth as dictator. (OK I'll add the obligatory )

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

Democracy might be an imperfect beast and sporting organisations run democratically don't always get it right as self-interest does indeed play a part.

However, I'd back in an imperfect democracy, with a hint of self interest ahead of a corporatised bureaucracy every day of the week.

Or as Alexander Carey might have put it"

The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy

 

[cyclopath]

This.



Complete and total agreement from me. But short of armageddon, how do you see this happening (noting your statement above).



Yes I was semi-joking. Semi. I am dead set certain the SRU guys would be a step forward over this lot. Give me a couple of SRU guys, Stooke, a finance guy NOT a banker, Hodge as player rep, think about Josephine perhaps, and NO-ONE with a CV of Board experience, then an experienced sporting administrator at CEO.

It's the best I have to offer, in the mean time I'd take Papworth as dictator. (OK I'll add the obligatory )

Putting armageddon aside, I have no real idea how to make it happen. My belief is that the power bloc of NSWRU / QRU plus maybe the ACTRU is too hard to break. The ARU is monopolised by it, and I just can't see them willingly give up their influence. Sadly.

 

[dru]

Putting armageddon aside, I have no real idea how to make it happen. My belief is that the power bloc of NSWRU / QRU plus maybe the ACTRU is too hard to break. The ARU is monopolised by it, and I just can't see them willingly give up their influence. Sadly.

Sad, yep.

I really do think I understand the guys who say, OK it's not good, but this is the pro-rugby that we have. Burning the place down is not an option.

But, you know, burning it down and starting again from the grass roots has this strain romance to it.

One thing for sure, imvho, I have complete nil confidence in NSWRU, QRU, and ARU. I'm kind of on board with the WA guys and "we don't want the ERU". I consider myself a Brisbane guy, I live in Sydney. And to hell with the ERU.

 

[Quick Hands]

Sad, yep.

I really do think I understand the guys who say, OK it's not good, but this is the pro-rugby that we have. Burning the place down is not an option.

But, you know, burning it down and starting again from the grass roots has this strain romance to it.

One thing for sure, imvho, I have complete nil confidence in NSWRU, QRU, and ARU. I'm kind of on board with the WA guys and "we don't want the ERU". I consider myself a Brisbane guy, I live in Sydney. And to hell with the ERU.

Because the ERU don't really represent Sydney or Brisbane, they represent themselves and a very narrow section of the rugby community.

 

[Echidna]

Watching Aust v NZ.
ARU upper management should have the broom through them.
Coach has to go as well and he can take the ordinary defence coach (Grey) with him. Grey has always been average.
Captain does not do the work of a 7 - bye bye to you as well.
Complete restructure needed.
Sitting with a 10 yr old and its hard to share the love for this crap.
No investment in juniors and very poor management equals failure.
At least this evening may result in change.
If not what will??????

 

[Runner]

You bothered to watch!

I have moved on.

School boy rugby and Shute shield only stuff to watch

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm not sure how you fix Australian Rugby's structure and I'm not at all convinced that anything much changes even if you change all the people at each level.

Let's start with the NSWRU. Why would anyone there not think that the Shute Shield with all its history is important and that with our large participation base we are important to Australian Rugby and deserve a greater say at national level than most states with far fewer players.

At the ARU, what changes? It becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the only thing that generates significant income for the game is the Wallabies. You rightly make decisions to try and maximise it.

Behind that you need a good number of professional players. Super Rugby is far from perfect but the money needed to do something different is massive and would need huge external investment for a significant time.

You would decide that you need to trim expenditure on players. How easy is it to lower the percentage by a couple in the next CBA? Probably very but you'd need to try it. How many players do you lose if you do manage to lower it and then pay everyone less?

We've got huge issues but I'm just not convinced anyone would do anything drastically different at any level of the hierarchy.

If you put Papworth in charge of the ARU I can't imagine he would suddenly find a way to spend millions more on the grassroots.

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[kiap]

the only thing that generates significant income for the game is the Wallabies.

Well, yeah, but it's sliding.

Interest is waning. Bledisloe tickets are now cut price.

Super Rugby is far from perfect but the money needed to do something different is massive

No, it is Super Rugby that's hemorrhaging cash massively.

Test rugby income generated in the last six months of the year is blown by the next six months of Supe. And more.

Cut the transcontinental no-rater down to two months maximum as a champions trophy format. Or scrap it.

Time for pro rugby in our timezone.

 

[Braveheart81]

Time for pro rugby in our timezone.

I agree but I think the runway you'd need between the ARU and team owners would be $50m+.

Super Rugby is losing the ARU an average of maybe $5m a year bailing out teams?

We need to replace it but I don't think it is easy.

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