Australian Rugby / RA

[Strewthcobber]

so many quality players atm are looking elsewhere… it’s such a shame that feels like RA is sitting idle and being reactive.

if any reform comes to the game. We need greater transparency about wallaby top ups and how the money is divided out.

does anyone else find it maddening that 3 big signings of recent all went to the Waratahs and they all play same position group (JS, Jorgensen and kellaway)

Depends what you mean by "big signing" I guess? Su'ualli signed up in March 2023, just after TT/Rebels was announced. Nick White/Force was announced after that.

Just looking at the 2024 Brumbies squad announcement.....
Allan Ala'alatoa, Blake Schoupp, Len Ikitau, Tom Wright, James Slipper, Tamati Tua, Rory Scott, Harry Vella, Ollie Sapsford, Cadeyrn Neville, Billy Pollard, Declan Meredith, Hudson Creighton, Connal McInerney and Jack Debreczeni

were all announced after that. Surely there's some "big signings" there? I reckon probably 4 players on top-ups at least

The Reds had a swag of re-signings last year as well, including McReight, McDermott, Wilson

 

[Wilson]

Depends what you mean by "big signing" I guess? Su'ualli signed up in March 2023, just after TT/Rebels was announced. Nick White/Force was announced after that.

Just looking at the 2024 Brumbies squad announcement.....
Allan Ala'alatoa, Blake Schoupp, Len Ikitau, Tom Wright, James Slipper, Tamati Tua, Rory Scott, Harry Vella, Ollie Sapsford, Cadeyrn Neville, Billy Pollard, Declan Meredith, Hudson Creighton, Connal McInerney and Jack Debreczeni

were all announced after that. Surely there's some "big signings" there? I reckon probably 4 players on top-ups at least

Hard to claim White to the Force in that category when the Brumbies wanted to keep him but lost him because his RA top up was reduced.

From those Brumbies likely on top ups I think only Ikitau and Slipper were announced as re-signed after Su'ualli and I wouldn't be surprised if Slipper's contract was reduced on his previous one. Either way I'm not sure re-signing long standing players quite compares to recruiting in big names or locking up hotly contested but uncapped and still unproven young talent.

FWIW I don't think there's any conspiracy here, but the frustration is very real and presents a growing perception problem for RA to manage now that the have centralised the tahs.

 

[Strewthcobber]

FWIW I don't think there's any conspiracy here, but the frustration is very real and presents a growing perception problem for RA to manage now that the have centralised the tahs.

Agree with this.

Most of it is just peolpe who grew up or live in really nice, expensive areas of Sydney want to be paid to play rugby and continue to live in nice, expensive areas of Sydney, and if you are an outside back/playmaker who could play league then you can demand a higher price tag to do it

 

[Wilson]

Agree with this.

Most of it is just peolpe who grew up or live in really nice, expensive areas of Sydney want to be paid to play rugby and continue to live in nice, expensive areas of Sydney, and if you are an outside back/playmaker who could play league then you can demand a higher price tag to do it

There's much more to it than that though - the tahs are probably now sitting with the worst managed pathway, at least when it comes to that "final mile" of preparing players for professionalism. It leaves them in a place where, relative to the talent base in NSW, they are "over recruiting", relying on other sides in and out of Australia to finish their players and hopefully get them back or paying overs for established players or stars from league.

This has happened over a long time - no engagement with the NRC, no investment in out of season matches like the other super sides have been booking, etc. It's a contributing factor to their poor performance this season and their injury crisis - the guys they've been calling up to fill gaps should have had more time in around the extended squads for off season games and been better prepared to make the step up. Then they might have avoided throwing Barret in at prop early against the Rebels for example.

This is what they (RA) need to be focused on fixing at the tahs - it's a long term solution, it's more cost effective then recruitment and it actually serves to broaden the player base in the country as a whole with flow on benefits for the rest of the sides.

 

[Rob42]

And I think Sua'ali'i and Jorgensen's salaries are being topped up by an external donor group? Maybe also Angus Bell's? Nice to have the money, but the recruiting policy of that group might not always be aligned with RA.

 

[Rob42]

There's much more to it than that though - the tahs are probably now sitting with the worst managed pathway, at least when it comes to that "final mile" of preparing players for professionalism. It leaves them in a place where, relative to the talent base in NSW, they are "over recruiting", relying on other sides in and out of Australia to finish their players and hopefully get them back or paying overs for established players or stars from league.

This has happened over a long time - no engagement with the NRC, no investment in out of season matches like the other super sides have been booking, etc. It's a contributing factor to their poor performance this season and their injury crisis - the guys they've been calling up to fill gaps should have had more time in around the extended squads for off season games and been better prepared to make the step up. Then they might have avoided throwing Barret in at prop early against the Rebels for example.

This is what they (RA) need to be focused on fixing at the tahs - it's a long term solution, it's more cost effective then recruitment and it actually serves to broaden the player base in the country as a whole with flow on benefits for the rest of the sides.

+2

 

[Strewthcobber]

It leaves them in a place where, relative to the talent base in NSW, they are "over recruiting", relying on other sides in and out of Australia to finish their players and hopefully get them back or paying overs for established players or stars from league

I don't disagree with your Waratahs development point.

But, given the salary cap and how Super Rugby contracts work it's not the Tahs who are overpaying Kellaway, Su'ualli and Jorgensen right?

They would be getting paid the same amount by whichever Super Rugby team they played for - it's RA and high net worth external benefactors stumping up.

And presumably for these guys, it's either the Tahs or Japan/France/NRL.

 

[KevinO]

Kellaway would be a interesting case study, left the Tahs and went overseas, doubt his contract was to big when he returned to Melbourne, then Japan only to be lured back by Dave Rennie. Then had a break through season and secured Wallabies duty and top ups. This is probably his first really big contract.

 

[Wilson]

I don't disagree with your Waratahs development point.

But, given the salary cap and how Super Rugby contracts work it's not the Tahs who are overpaying Kellaway, Su'ualli and Jorgensen right?

They would be getting paid the same amount by whichever Super Rugby team they played for - it's RA and high net worth external benefactors stumping up.

And presumably for these guys, it's either the Tahs or Japan/France/NRL.

I think Jorgensen is probably getting paid overs on future promise, Su'ualli is a different question but harder to quantify until he arrives. That's more from a whole of contract perspective though. I'd also contend the current salary cap is fundamentally broken and needs significant reform. I'd call it not fit for purpose but from everything I've seen it doesn't have anywhere near the clarity of purpose to work out what it is or isn't fit for.

That was more a broader point about the tahs squad contracting though - if a young player heads to the Brumbies or UK or where ever to develop as a pro and then the tahs have to lure them back I think they're in a position where they're forced to pay more than what they would've been able to get them for if they had never left and been developed at the tahs. More so when you're trying to bring in guys from entirely outside the system. Even when RA top ups are involved there's more likely to be inefficiencies there that see the player get paid overs. It's not always the case when you have guys like Latu or Perese who made missteps in their personal life that mean you can get them on the cheap, but you can't rely on those situations too often.

 

[Derpus]

so many quality players atm are looking elsewhere… it’s such a shame that feels like RA is sitting idle and being reactive.

if any reform comes to the game. We need greater transparency about wallaby top ups and how the money is divided out.

does anyone else find it maddening that 3 big signings of recent all went to the Waratahs and they all play same position group (JS, Jorgensen and kellaway)

They broke.

 

[LeCheese]

Good to see Schmidt and Cron giving some time to the schools.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=797549515635660

 

[stillmissit]

Just read that the French wanted to grab Chalie Cale but Joe Schmidt talked him out of it.

 

[Dctarget]

Just read that the French wanted to grab Chalie Cale but Joe Schmidt talked him out of it.

Apparently he’s re-signed for one year

 

[PhilClinton]

Just read that the French wanted to grab Chalie Cale but Joe Schmidt talked him out of it.

Interesting considering they’re allegedly getting rid of the Giteau rule. If Cale went over to France and was playing well enough, Schmidt can still pick him.

Or is the issue that he is also French eligible?

 

[Wilson]

Interesting considering they’re allegedly getting rid of the Giteau rule. If Cale went over to France and was playing well enough, Schmidt can still pick him.

Or is the issue that he is also French eligible?

Those rumours were shot down by RA, Giteau law is not going anywhere.

 

[ForceFan]

I'm seeking some assistance/information and guidance re some key statistics related to Rugby Union in Australia.

The last 2 Annual Reports from Rugby Australia (2022 and 2023) contain reference to STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE 1 which relates to Increasing participation in the game.

However, no state-by-state participation statistics related to the number of registered players are provided in either Annual Report.
Both just talk about a 3% total increase each year - but no base numbers.

Previously I've heard numbers referenced such as a national total of 80,000 or 140,000 registered players.
The latter is presented in 2023 in a number of locations but are disputed - as representing an estimate only - and is considered too high.

Generally the % for each state is provided to be approximately as follows:
NSW - 43%
Qld - 32%
WA - 9%
Vic - 8%
SA - 3%
ACT/Sthn NSW - 2%
NT - 2%
Tas - 1%

Can anybody please provide a breakdown of recent real numbers?

 

[half]

I'm seeking some assistance/information and guidance re some key statistics related to Rugby Union in Australia.

The last 2 Annual Reports from Rugby Australia (2022 and 2023) contain reference to STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE 1 which relates to Increasing participation in the game.

However, no state-by-state participation statistics related to the number of registered players are provided in either Annual Report.
Both just talk about a 3% total increase each year - but no base numbers.

Previously I've heard numbers referenced such as a national total of 80,000 or 140,000 registered players.
The latter is presented in 2023 in a number of locations but are disputed - as representing an estimate only - and is considered too high.

Generally the % for each state is provided to be approximately as follows:
NSW - 43%
Qld - 32%
WA - 9%
Vic - 8%
SA - 3%
ACT/Sthn NSW - 2%
NT - 2%
Tas - 1%

Can anybody please provide a breakdown of recent real numbers?

I typed in google "how many registered rugby union players in Australia". Got two links that may help.

the first link I typed below

This was the response and seems close, to both your numbers add the 85K to the 60K school, less the overlap with people in both so say around 100K. Add the 7's less those already counted in the 100K, as well the 56K schools and programs less already included.

See below, 85K are registered, then add 55K, which is made up of 60K school, 12K 7's, and 56K school and programs less the over lap of those already counted in the 140K. This does make the 140K a guess as its assumes over lapping in many of the numbers.

85,059 (Club XV) 32,119
(Club 7s) 12,067 (Touch 7s)
60,000 (School XV & 7s)
56,150 (Sporting Schools Program/Get Into Rugby)


Second Link

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/14ssm05

 

[Strewthcobber]

The QRU facility strategy has actual registered player numbers for Queensland in 2019

There are in excess of 27,000 registered players belonging to 240 clubs.

7251 senor players, 19,900 junior players

This includes Female - 1,272 competition participants in Queensland with Junior girls aged 18 and under totaled 787 in 2019

Queensland Rugby Union Facility Strategy | Queensland Rugby

qld.rugby

 

[Wallaby Man]

The numbers are all fluff and include children with the most limited exposure to the sport because it helps get government grants.

If there was truly 60k students playing the game, let’s say 25 kids per team. That means there is 2,400 different teams in the country. If there is 100 schools that genuinely play it, it would mean they each have 24 teams. It just isn’t the case.

 

[Braveheart81]

We use the same criteria as every other sport though so it's a like for like comparison.