Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2012

[light]

PS: My mail is that McIntyre will play 10 on Saturday, Horwitz will be at 12 and Placid at 15.

PPS - the coach said that Tuttle was the back up flyhalf today - but Greene played the whole game anyway.
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My mail is that Gunn will be at 7.

 

[Lee Grant]

I wouldn't be surprised if your mail is spot on light. They will probably play both Gunn and Dempsey, who each had stints at 7 during the tournament, as flankers. Gunn looks like a specialist 7 to me, or could be as a senior player, though he was named as a 6 for Qld I. Gunn was mentioned as a 6 before the Oz tournament, but does he ever play 7 for Churchie?

I had the big bopper Qld no 8 in my starting team a 6 as a left-field selection because I thought he would be needed in the pack for the NZ test; so why not start that process earlier?

Mind you they beat NZ Schools without a big 6 last year; so what do I know?

I expect Whitely to start at 8 and be the captain.
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[light]

Fakaosilea is the type of player you want at 6 against the Kiwi's, I would be very surprised if selectors picked him there though.

You would assume that leaves Stewart at 13 and Pulver at 9, assuming Kellaway and Jones are on the wings (which they should be).

 

[Lee Grant]

Certainly that would be the case if Horwitz plays at 12, but maybe my mail is wrong. Stewart played OK at 13 for NSW but he is really the quintessential 12.

If they are indeed playing Horwitz out of position, it doesn't make sense:
- there are two better goal kickers in the XV than he is and
- if they want different kickers from the ruck on each side that doesn't work because McIntyre and Horwitz are both RF kickers.

Stewart will have to start; so if Horwitz is at 12 it will mean that Stewart plays at 13 and the very talented Foketi will be on the bench, and ditto for Robinson. So it doesn't make sense from a midfield point of view either.

I doubt if they will play Foketi on the wing except from the bench, because Jones and Kellaway are in dynamite form.

Don't know that the (in effect) 5th ranked NSW scrummie, Pulver, is better than 2nd ranked Ferris, not that I ever thought NSW selections were gospel. [barbarian will probably pick Pulver. ]

Most of the scrummies in the main teams had some good days in the tournament, but nobody stood out as the rainmaker. The same goes for the flyhalves for that matter.
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[an observer]

Lee, do you really think that Horwitz is out of position at 12? IMO he would be a natural in that position. From what I observed, whilst being a very good rugby player, he is by no means a play maker and unlike you, I do not believe he has a good kicking game at all, but he is a safe bet feeding the ball on the run. He is also a very sound defender. I think (if it comes off) that McIntyre at 10, Horwitz at 12, Stewart at 13, Placid at 15, Jones and Kellaway on the wing, would be an incredibly talented and exciting back line and should be a very safe bet for placing points on the board vs Tonga. Combine this with the forwards and I believe the selectors are pretty much on the money. Will be interesting to see the run on side on Saturday. Good luck to the lads, I hope they do well.

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee, do you really think that Horwitz is out of position at 12?

It's just that I've never seen him play there.

You could be right and against Tonga he could do well, but I'd rather field a team for Tonga that is designed to beat NZ.

Maybe it is and I can't see it.
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[Inside Shoulder]

As qwerty said: that is Kellaway. He is someone I described both last year an this as a Matt Burke type of player at the same age. He played fullback for GPS but they played him on the wing for NSW, as you saw.

But he wasn't the best winger at the tournament IMO; that was 16 y.o. Harry Jones who should have been in the NSW Ones but had to play in the Twos because they used a centre on the wing in the Ones - (and it didn't work out.)

Kellaway and Jones are both in the Oz Schools Ones and will be back at school next year.

Watch this space on these two lads.
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G78 will set me straight but I was under the impression that until very recently H Jones had been a fullback. By recently I mean converted by u16 rep selection to wing about 12 months ago but continued to play fullback at school and club after that. If so he presumably is not even demonstrating his full potential yet so the wrap from LG is an auspicious one.


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[Lee Grant]

Harry Jones played fullback for Sydney Juniors in the Oz U/16 tournament last year - out of the Newport JRU. Next to Placid, he was the best fullback of the tournament. He was better than the NSW Schools fullback, Kellaway, who was found out of position a couple of times during the week, though that is neither here nor there at that age.

Sometimes my memory plays tricks but I wrote these notes on Harry during the 2011 U/16 tournament: "Some promising runs; would have been seen to better effect in the NSW Schools team; finished tournament in excellent form."

But Kings played him on the wing in the trials this year and Kellaway played fullback for Scots, and that's where they played for GPS Is a few weeks ago.

However the NSW selectors gave the 15 jersey to McIntyre, the CHS flyhalf; and chose Kellaway on one wing and centre Milne on the other, with Jones as winger in the NSW IIs. As I wrote in the NSW thread: Jones would have been picked in the Ones if they didn't choose a fullback and a centre on the wings. He had a good week.

Jones was often sensational for NSW IIs so the Oz selectors were able to correct that blunder, which had done no favours for Milne either.
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[Iluvmyfooty]

Harry Jones played fullback for Sydney Juniors in the Oz U/16 tournament last year - out of the Newport JRU. Next to Placid, he was the best fullback of the tournament. He was better than the NSW Schools fullback, Kellaway, who was found out of position a couple of times during the week, though that is neither here nor there at that age.

Sometimes my memory plays tricks but I wrote these notes on Harry during the 2011 U/16 tournament: "Some promising runs; would have been seen to better effect in the NSW Schools team; finished tournament in excellent form."

But Kings played him on the wing in the trials this year and Kellaway played fullback for Scots, and that's where they played for GPS Is a few weeks ago.

However the NSW selectors gave the 15 jersey to McIntyre, the CHS flyhalf; and chose Kellaway on one wing and centre Milne on the other, with Jones as winger in the NSW IIs. As I wrote in the NSW thread: Jones would have been picked in the Ones if they didn't choose a fullback and a centre on the wings. He had a good week.

Jones was often sensational for NSW IIs so the Oz selectors were able to correct that blunder, which had done no favours for Milne either.
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lee
I don't think the selection of Jones was a "blunder". From your posts if he was U16 last year this makes him in yr 11 this year (?). In selections if you have 2 players vying for a spot in a NSW or Oz team and there is not much between them then, generally, the Yr 12 boy will get selected before the Yr11 as it is seen that their year may the next one and the Yr 12 boy has his last chance.

 

[Lee Grant]

I have written that a few times myself but in my eyes centre Milne should not have been "vying" for a wing spot in the first place.

He was found out a few times last week on the wing and notably versus Qld I when the excellent Qld flyhalf Greene saw Milne was lining up with his outside centre on defence instead of hanging back for the very kick that he placed right into the arms of the Qld fullback, Placid. 7 points because Milne didn't know the position - and it wasn't his fault.

He's too slow to play there anyway - he tried to chase down the Tongan winger on Wednesday and was overtaken by Porch who nailed the ball runner.

When I wrote in an earlier post: "Jones was often sensational for NSW IIs so the Oz selectors were able to correct that blunder, which had done no favours for Milne either", it was the selection of Milne as a winger I was talking about as the blunder, not that of Kellaway. That may be too tough on Milne, but he probably thought the same.

I have no argument to Kellaway's being picked for NSW Is on the wing ahead of Jones, but if he had been chosen at fullback where he played for GPS (and hence part of my comment when the NSW team was announced), and Milne had been chosen in one of the NSW teams as a centre, where he is a considerable player, Jones should have been on the wing for the NSW Is - on form.
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[Inside Shoulder]

Harry Jones played fullback for Sydney Juniors in the Oz U/16 tournament last year - out of the Newport JRU. Next to Placid, he was the best fullback of the tournament. He was better than the NSW Schools fullback, Kellaway, who was found out of position a couple of times during the week, though that is neither here nor there at that age.

Sometimes my memory plays tricks but I wrote these notes on Harry during the 2011 U/16 tournament: "Some promising runs; would have been seen to better effect in the NSW Schools team; finished tournament in excellent form."

But Kings played him on the wing in the trials this year and Kellaway played fullback for Scots, and that's where they played for GPS Is a few weeks ago.

However the NSW selectors gave the 15 jersey to McIntyre, the CHS flyhalf; and chose Kellaway on one wing and centre Milne on the other, with Jones as winger in the NSW IIs. As I wrote in the NSW thread: Jones would have been picked in the Ones if they didn't choose a fullback and a centre on the wings. He had a good week.

Jones was often sensational for NSW IIs so the Oz selectors were able to correct that blunder, which had done no favours for Milne either.
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Lee, that confirms that he has not played much on the wing (less than I had thought) so to get a wrap in that position is a good sign for his future, i would have thought.

 

[Swarley]

I wouldn't be surprised if your mail is spot on light. They will probably play both Gunn and Dempsey, who each had stints at 7 during the tournament, as flankers. Gunn looks like a specialist 7 to me, or could be as a senior player, though he was named as a 6 for Qld I. Gunn was mentioned as a 6 before the Oz tournament, but does he ever play 7 for Churchie?

I'm pretty sure Gunn plays #6 for Churchie. Digger MacMillan (Year 11) played some openside last year (he's a year older) and I think he's been playing there in the trials, with Lochie Oppenheimer returning at #8.

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee, that confirms that he has not played much on the wing (less than I had thought) so to get a wrap in that position is a good sign for his future, i would have thought.

He certainly is on track to do well after school, as is Kellaway, but we will get a better picture next year when both are in Yr.12. The game tomorrow may give a slight clue as well.

For some who think we are wanking on too much about ace schoollboy players and more often than not those who play for rugby private schools, we are aware that school form doesn't mean that they are going to be Wallabies or even top pro players, later on. Nor do we think that players who did not make their mark at school are no chance to do the same. We probably know the names of top senior players who did not make their mark in rugby in their school years as well as anybody.

It's just that it is another level of rugby that is interesting and since it is the level that many people see these players for the first time their efforts are worthy of comment. We just have to make sure that we don't put too much pressure on the lads talking them up and we should even more careful in criticising their play: they are all trying their best and sometimes that is difficult playing in rep games with new team mates - and sometimes out of position, as we have discussed.
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[Inside Shoulder]

I would add, Lee, that it is a fantastic achievement and because all the things you mention that are beyond one's schoolboy's rugby days will occur, if they occur, in another phase of life these achievements are worthy of consideration and discussion in their own right - and warrant proud reflection, by those who achieve them, on what an honour they are.

Of course no one can know how these kids will go after school - for the most part they have never played kids who are more than 11 months older or younger than them.

 

[light]

Swarley is right, Gunn is at 6 for Churchie. That being said, I too have always thought of him as a 7, he's a very good fetcher and gets the occasional pilfer. His speed is also a very underrated asset IMO, I suppose Churchie needs him more as a blindside, 7. MacMillan is much the same build though.

 

[Lee Grant]

Of course no one can know how these kids will go after school - for the most part they have never played kids who are more than 11 months older or younger than them.

Well said.

Playing Colts with and against boys a couple of years older will be their first hurdle especially those who play in the tight five. They would have done some gym work at school but some of the Colts would have been putting in heaps more than they have ever done and that is on top of what the older Colts did at school themselves.

There will be a Darwinian weeding out of players even before they get to Grade though some will get to Grade before their time because of the poor depth some clubs have now. That will serve them no good but it is the way of the world in Oz club rugby.

Many of the tight five forwards will find out what they have already expected, that they won't be big enough to play prop or lock or 8 as senior players; so some of them will look at playing hooker or 6 or 7. There will be a host of star Oz schools forwards who will end up as notters - not really locks or 6s or 8s but too small, unless they have a notable point of difference, to play in their school position. They may end up in Grade and that's about it, and maybe not in the Ones.

2nd rowers will find a few giraffes like some Pyles, Nevilles or Douglases blocking their way, yet they were unheard of as schools players. Props may take 5 years to get to the level in senior rugby that they were at school and then they may find players from the school Twos in front of them because they dealt with the senior scrumming laws better and got stronger than they did, despite their best efforts.

Backs will have similar problems though not as many as the forwards. Players with old heads at school will be playing against men a few years later who have the 21 year old head at 21, that they had at 18.

In all positions you will have lads that were physically mature at 17 but notice others catching up with them later. Some, hopefully not too many who end up playing for Oz Schools or the A team, will find out that they are not tough enough to advance much after they leave school.

And yarda, yarda - I digress.
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[G-78-XV-V]

The team has been announced, but I can't find it anywhere-
anyone able to help ???

 

[an observer]

The team has been announced, but I can't find it anywhere-
anyone able to help ???

Pretty sure it will cost you hush money until tomorrow. In saying that, does anyone have word on any of the positions?

 

[Openside]

Its almost as if the NSW 1's team was created to defeat QLD 1s rather than maximize each players potential at state level

 

[Micheal]

I have it from a good source that tomorrows team (atleast the backline) is as follows:

9. Pulver
10. McIntyre
11. Kellaway
12. Stewart
13. Foketi
14. Robinson
15. Placid