Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Fat Cat]

I agree with all you say except I think we have to work around, and cater for the opposite day that rugby league is played. Although in the transition from 12 to 13's there does seem to be a significant drop in numbers which I assume would be boys starting school rugby on the weekends therefore not wanting to play village rugby anymore.

I agree with your comments re team numbers in 10's and 11's.

Rugby league has a significant impact on our competitions when it changes to being played on a Sunday in the 16's age group, also their Harold Mathews program is a big carrot for players choosing one code over another.

Younger age, more professional colts programs would go a long way toward stemming the tide of players moving to rugby league in these age groups and would also encourage players to rugby.

Blocking the rep pathway to players whom are not committed to the village comp I think is important also. These players are one significant reason for the downfall of competition and teams in the older age groups.

Its interesting that in junior rugby league the competitions are geographically more local and are ungraded. The grading in junior rugby does seem to be where a lot of the problems stem from.

 

[Quick Hands]

Agree FC, the change in junior league happens in different ages in different areas, yet another reason why the Sydney wide solution isn't working. On the peninsula, league moves to Sunday at 15s.

It's interesting to note that there are 11 junior league clubs and 11 junior rugby clubs on the peninsula; junior league runs a Manly Warringah competition while junior rugby runs a Sydney wide competition from 10s. I've had a look at the 10s and 11s draws and there are enough teams to have locally based competitions all over Sydney, which could still have A and B divisions to cater for participation and those of higher standard. I suspect that more locally based competitions would help retain players as well.

In the last 2 years 600 boys have stopped playing junior rugby after 11s. The way we do things is just not working.

 

[Fat Cat]

QH league changes to Sunday on the peninsula (and across Sydney) at U/16 not U/15

 

[Quick Hands]

I can be corrected on that - must be a recent change. I know when I coached a 14s team a few years back now that league moved to Sundays at 15s. They may well have changed when rugby moved to Sundays.

 

[Brainstrust]

By the time the boys have reached the 16's, the majority have decided on league or rugby. The idea that league coaches are supportive of their players having a game of rugby on either the Saturday or Sunday just won't happen. The circumstance is no different between league v club rugby and schools v club rugby. Neither are going to give the boy their blessing to do both, and in the end the parents make the same decision that 2 games of 16's and up hard contact every weekend isn't going to be supported, unless there's a carrot such as a tournament for higher honours. I watch a lot of junior rugby across Sydney, and I would say the year 7's and 8's boys are not juggling league and club rugby, they are going to play afl on top of rugby, not league. So the elephant in the room is afl, not league in my view. There is a much greater affinity between afl and rugby in my view. I see a lot if "B" level players drifting out of rugby and being lured to afl, not league. I'm sure every one has different experiences or examples, but I am surprised that there is so much focus on how we fit with league, where as I think energy needs to be directed to how rugby combats afl. League in Sydney has been around forever, and the decline in junior rugby numbers seems to be more directly correlated to the rise in prominence of afl.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think there's different circumstances in different parts of Sydney. On the peninsula for example, the league/union double up is quite common up to 15s anyway. There's a couple of junior league and union clubs who in fact have an arrangement whereby rego fees are waived for the 2nd team - i.e. if boys plays junior league for club x and also plays junior rugby for club y or vice versa, the second team doesn't charge a rego fee.

The single biggest factor here in the league v union (among the uncommitted) is the amount of travel involved in junior rugby as compared to junior league.

 

[Fat Cat]

I don't see the AFL currently being much of a factor at all.

Kids (and their parents) that are into their contact sport if playing 2 games per weekend will probably play league first and rugby second.

In deciding which game they do play, if they do have to choose, they would probably choose league due to less travel, and the greater accessability of the league pathway to higher honours, and greater exposure in the media.

if their was another sport to combat its probably soccer, and if their was some issue that may contribute to declining numbers, it may be concussion.

The main issues are travel, pathway, schools, and league.

 

[sarcophilus]

I don't see the AFL currently being much of a factor at all.


The main issues are travel, pathway, schools, and league.

The perceived ownership of the sport by the public schools in this country will relegate rugby to having as much relevance as field hockey. Making participants and their families travel across the Sydney basin for u/10s matches will reinforce the perception of it being a boutique game with little base or future.

recent information about concussion in collision sports will impact significantly on number of unweaned committing to the sport as will the neck injury as there is little differentiation to untrained eyes between either of the rugby codes.

i don't understand the constant issue with the pathways argument. If there are less people playing a greater percentage will achieve higher honours. At no point should playing for the Wallabies, Waratahs and a well lit path be an inducement to participating in the sport. What is the difference between playing village rugby, then colts then for you subbies or 3rd of 4th grade at a 1st division club and whatever happens to players signing up for a suburban league or soccer club.

if not being part of the top <1% stops you participating , you aren't going to do much

 

[S'UP]

I hear for the first time ever TKS will have more boys playing soccer than rugby this winter. Must be some interesting discussions at TKS.

 

[Quick Hands]

Following what is also the reality at High, Grammar and Newington.

 

[Westie]

Following what is also the reality at High, Grammar and Newington.

This is good news.

 

[mangled]

The problem started when the zones were "voted" out .. unfortunately this was a vote made by districts without any real thought.

I agree that we should be back to zones, where the districts have a say within those zones. and SJRU simply manage draws, disputes and concentrate on bettering the game overall.

With reference to Saturdays.. there is a lot of talk on this forum that kids want to play Saturday and geographical. Tell your club presidents that!!!!! SJRU have always offered a Saturday comp but clubs have opted to stay on a Sunday. It is probably easier for them to give the school boys a second game rather than work on recruiting new players to the game.

Some League Clubs play on Sundays from the minis, this is another reason some clubs rely on the Saturday Rugby and are slowly collapsing.

The last couple of years have been awful for traditional Saturday clubs as more and more clubs decide that they are moving to Sunday.

For those of you that are still involved with minis, let your clubs know that you want to play on a Saturday from the U10s. Speak to you neighbouring Districts about playing geographically again.

One solution would be to have all games back on a Saturday except maybe A and B grade. Let them play on a Sunday.

The structure has been arranged around the larger and stronger clubs... They are the ones with the loudest mouths!!!!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not sure that Zones, as they were previously incarnated, is the way to re-organise the SJRU.

While these are very convenient for travel purposes, there was always major discrepencies in opportunities for "rep development" at Zone Level and in standard of competition within and between the village clubs in the Zones. The Northern Zone with a bazillion players could potentially field 3 or 4 rep teams, while the Southern Zone had less players than an average Northern Zone district. Easts usually didn't play at >U15. Wicks usually petered out at U16. SD typically had 2 clubs at U17.

Meanwhile in the West Zone, Eastwood has normally had good numbers at >U14's, with the other districts more or less following the Wicks model. Wests only had one village club team in the district.

There is a reasonable argument for some form of geographic based "conferencing" in SJRU, but if there is to be any reimplementation of Zones, these should be based around club and player numbers, so there are sufficient club and team numbers in a "Zone grouping" to conduct viable competitions.

 

[mangled]

Agreed.. I was not actually saying that Zones need to be reintroduced as they were.. just simply smaller comps need to be re-established. Saturday rugby was viable until the zones/smaller comps were taken away.

 

[WTF?]

I'm smart enough to know that I don't have all the answers. We could look at the following:

....

10s, 11s and 12s play on Saturdays (this is before private school rugby starts, so I can't see any reason why these age groups were ever moved to Sunday)

.....

They're my thoughts anyway.

Not sure if you are aware QH, but private school rugby (on a Saturday) starts at U9's so not sure this would work.

The only reason my son can play club & school is that club rugby is on Friday night/Sunday.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Welcome to Gaggerland @Mangled.

Good to have you aboard. You have some good ideas.

One of the problems with Saturday rugby as it was in the olden days, was that in the older age groups the smaller comps in the South and West Zone (constrained by the Zone arrangements) became so small that Club x ended up playing Club y 4 times annually in the 14 round competition, and 3 times in the finals series, with the prospect of exactly the same occurring the following year as they progressed into the next older age group.

Run smaller competitions 6 teams is viable playing each other at home and away. Perhaps some flexibility in terms of competition lengths and formats - does it have to be 14 rounds and finals?

A home and away fixture with 6 teams = 10 rounds only (works with CAS and AAGPS 1sts and 2nds). Semi Final and Final is another two weeks of games.

Can a knockout competition be run for a couple of rounds to make up the "14 weekend" season. Knockout round winners progressing towards a knockout cup final and loosers going into a Hong Kong 7's type Plate, Bowl, Fork and Spoon competitions so they get time on the paddock as well.

 

[mangled]

No disrespect to private school boys but we have to take them out of the equation to move on. .. They already get a game. . Many potential players are being turned off by our current system which caters to school boys rugby

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[Hugh Jarse]

But if we count the School Boy players playing Junior Village Club rugby and when they are playing School Rugby, then we get awesome participation figures to include in our annual reports.

We may actually have to get our chuffs and get stuck into the encouraging kids and teachers/coaches in the CCC, CHS and AICES schools systems to get kids playing rugby (Club or school framework doesn't matter) if the annual census of rugby participation numbers was a true count of participants.

Take the Private School "double gamers" out of SJRU and the extent of the reliance on the AAGPS/CAS/ISA system would become very evident, as would the neglect of the junior club grass roots.

 

[mangled]

So true. .. It's all about the participation numbers. .. that reminds me I need to send an email to ARU about the 5 kids I saw in the park with a rugby ball... surely they should be added to the figures

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[Inside Shoulder]

No disrespect to private school boys but we have to take them out of the equation to move on. .. They already get a game. . Many potential players are being turned off by our current system which caters to school boys rugby

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Its a noble sentiment but its tempered by a very cold reality: the strength of Australian rugby is the schools.
Letting them do the heavy lifting suits the ARU down to the ground because it costs nothing.
Its not a long term plan - its not even a medium term plan: but its THE plan.