• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
I have never played rugby at the elite level. But I reckon any kind of win against a New Zealand team is worth celebrating, at any level of the game from under-20s to Tests. Domination? Just falling over the line will do me every time.


Oh, I agree completely. That would do me as well. But I want to aim higher than just falling over the line. It seems like that's what the NZ teams do. Even when they've already won before the full-time, they keep playing urgent, hungry rugby right to the last second.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Forum

I through I would be the odd one out.

Dru first ask to merge then if that does not work set up a points table allocating points to a number of key factors and go with the highest.

Highlander you may be right but I doubt it I see small losses.

Strew yes some players would be lost to overseas leagues and we would have to become like soccer and call our best players back to play in test matches.

What can I say the logic of all your arguments is sound there is no denying that.

I guess we are at different ends of the same issue and I am on a tangent most on the forum may have through about but then applied some business logic too and you are looking at all the good Super Rugby brings and say this is good when one considers a question of balance says stay with what we have.

Breavheart we share something I too am a been counter in public practice and my experience tells me if a business is slipping a little each year and the competition is starting to ramp up, and I am relying on others for my upkeep, then I should consider change.

Lets consider with its warchest RL is now going after Oceania countries for test matches and thinking of putting a second side in NZ. Plus there partnership with Touch could add to their ratings.

The A-League from what I read will be with a commercial FTA broadcaster and when they expand to 12 teams will have over 250 matches to offer between the league itself, the FFA Cup, their Asian Champions League and International matches both male and female.

AFL the money they bare throwing around is scary and they see Rugby as a soft target and are going in hard in Rugby areas.

We on the other hand have reduced matches in Australia.

I essentially want a park to local District to Regional Australia Club to National team supported by a local domestic league.

Every single point you all made is correct. Except one and that is Rugby would have a base it controls and the pain for a few years is better than dying a death by a thousand cuts.

Sorry rant over maybe an old man looking through and missing his Rugby traditions. But what is currently being done IMO simply pays the wages of a number of select players and supports the office salaries and broad expenses.

Some questioned and essentially said many of the players were Australian etc and it could never happen.

Open the link to this story about a test between Samoa V Tonga then open the news link. See both the crowd and the passion.

Warning Waring Will Smith these are essentially Rugby people we are giving to league and creating as I said or opening Oceania up to League.


http://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/ns...t/news-story/28a038929b47a244608171603e2018e0
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Half,

I have lived and worked in Tonga, as a volunteer. I don't think Tongans care much whether they play our game or the 13s version. The main priority is to earn money for the family.


Naturally enough, there are far more opportunities in 13s than there are in rugby to get a pro contract in Australia.


As for spectators, people of Tongan and Samoan heritage will turn up to watch either code. But of course again there are far more opportunities to watch pro league than to watch pro rugby.


I used to assume that the huge influx of Pacific Islanders would give our game an automatic advantage, but that has not happened. The main reason, apart from the ubiquity and accessibility of the opposition code, is that they actually like rugby league. In fact, a lot of them seem to prefer it.


That is the reality we face.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I used to assume that the huge influx of Pacific Islanders would give our game an automatic advantage, but that has not happened.


I think it clearly has provided us with an advantage. There are large numbers of players of Pacific Islander or New Zealand origin playing rugby at all levels in Australia including for the Wallabies. Certainly the trend over a number of years is a big increase in the representation.

For the reasons you mentioned, the same thing has happened in rugby league and happens to the same or larger extent in New Zealand.

It has certainly helped the Wallabies remain one of the top three sides in the world.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Half,

I have lived and worked in Tonga, as a volunteer. I don't think Tongans care much whether they play our game or the 13s version. The main priority is to earn money for the family.


Naturally enough, there are far more opportunities in 13s than there are in rugby to get a pro contract in Australia.


As for spectators, people of Tongan and Samoan heritage will turn up to watch either code. But of course again there are far more opportunities to watch pro league than to watch pro rugby.


I used to assume that the huge influx of Pacific Islanders would give our game an automatic advantage, but that has not happened. The main reason, apart from the ubiquity and accessibility of the opposition code, is that they actually like rugby league. In fact, a lot of them seem to prefer it.


That is the reality we face.


For all the PI boys I knew growing up it was a simple question of opportunity. Nine NRL clubs in Sydney to the one Super Rugby franchise. There is a big emphasis on being able to provide for their families and RL is the simpler choice in terms of opportunity. Most actively support both. Some may prefer one to the other a little more but its not as black and white as many other fans.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Let me start by saying sorry because I indicated a few pages back I was the only person in Australia who believed we need to ditch Super Rugby and NZ teams and start our own 8 to 10 team competition in ACT, NSW, & QLD.

I promised I would not keep on about and conceded in my back of the hand cals the new format would be about 30 million shy in revenue compared to today's revenue. I promised not to post on it again but can't help myself after reading the paper today.

Today I read in the SMH I think it was that both the NRL and AFL are investing in Netball teams and that Netball will break away from the NZ V Aus competition of five teams each to an Australian only 10 team competition.

They are signing a FTA agreement with dollars attached with 9.

Before you post and tell me all the reasons Rugby cannot do this, and all the advantages Netball has over Rugby. I ask you to consider a competition that did not exist last year, is not a great rating success, and lets be fair its a female sport and they can do what we can't.

If I hitched a ride with Dr Who and went back five years and you asked me which sport out of Netball and Rugby has the best chance of getting an Australian only 10 team competition broadcast on Ch 9 you would have said Rugby.

Again without being overly dramatic FFA have indicated they are prepared to take a considerable hit to revenue to get Football access to as many people as possible. They expect a deal over the next few months which will include a FTA commercial broadcast partner.

I understand you all think I am mad, but my long term vision says we need a season long domestic competition.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
How much is the average netball player being paid in this league? What are the other earning options for a netball player?

What is the average wage in Super Rugby? What is the average wage available for the equivalent player in Europe or Japan?

Netball has huge participation numbers and no other real professional options.

What do you think the response of Australian rugby players would be if it was suggested to them that they had to take a pay cut of 50% and find part time jobs to subsidise their income but there was a chance they could get a FTA TV deal?

What do you think happens to the standard of Aussie rugby if we dilute the quality of our teams and stop playing against the best opposition?
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Let me start by saying sorry because I indicated a few pages back I was the only person in Australia who believed we need to ditch Super Rugby and NZ teams and start our own 8 to 10 team competition in ACT, NSW, & QLD.

I promised I would not keep on about and conceded in my back of the hand cals the new format would be about 30 million shy in revenue compared to today's revenue. I promised not to post on it again but can't help myself after reading the paper today.

Today I read in the SMH I think it was that both the NRL and AFL are investing in Netball teams and that Netball will break away from the NZ V Aus competition of five teams each to an Australian only 10 team competition.

They are signing a FTA agreement with dollars attached with 9.

Before you post and tell me all the reasons Rugby cannot do this, and all the advantages Netball has over Rugby. I ask you to consider a competition that did not exist last year, is not a great rating success, and lets be fair its a female sport and they can do what we can't.

If I hitched a ride with Dr Who and went back five years and you asked me which sport out of Netball and Rugby has the best chance of getting an Australian only 10 team competition broadcast on Ch 9 you would have said Rugby.

Again without being overly dramatic FFA have indicated they are prepared to take a considerable hit to revenue to get Football access to as many people as possible. They expect a deal over the next few months which will include a FTA commercial broadcast partner.

I understand you all think I am mad, but my long term vision says we need a season long domestic competition.


I doubt we'll see the TT league break up in 5 years time. Expand, yes. But not split.

I understand your point in regards to the need for FTA exposure but I really cannot see us leaving Super Rugby not without a viable alternative ready to go with little to no lost revenue. Not that I don't think we don't have the opportunity but just not with Super Rugby. I would like to see the ARU look to expand the NRC's schedule in the future to a h/a format and push it onto a FTA network.

It would be difficult but they have 5 years. Look for investors etc. To help underwrite it. Even do as the Shute Shield has done and produce the broadcast themselves and provide it to a FTA network.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
So what I am hearing is the idea is right but the funding short fall is to great to handle.

Last time I suggested the ARU and Super Rugby teams generate roughly 130 million in revenue less I estimated 10 million in travelling expenses that will not be needed. Essentially 120 million in any new system.

Assume if Netball can and by the sounds of things FFA can get a commercial FTA station to broadcast.

Assume a 8 team 27 round plus 4 weeks if finals. That's 112 games.

Assume also we play out of much more affordable stadiums.

Assume 7.5 k average crowd @ $30.00 per ticket.

7.5k for 108 games @ $30.00 per ticket,25 mil

finals say 5 with an average of 15k and ticket of $50.00 is 3.7 mil

Sponsors for the ARU plus 8 teams. 12 mil

Plus ARU for Wallaby test matches say 18 million its less than we earn now

Plus a say 2 million on stadium hire.

Thats about 60 million to date

The above to date is straight forward for every 1K we could add to the average it would add another 108 * 1,000 * $30.00 = 3.25 mil

We want 60 million or less depending on crowd size.

What do we have to sell to make up the 60 million in media money or the SANDZAR revenue

A 7's rugby tournament
108 club matches
5 final matches
say 12 test matches
plus a SOO series between ACT,NSW, QLD
plus international sales.

FFA are talking 70 to 80 million and its not that different to ours we need 60 million to equal current revenue.

We have three years to set it up and one and a half to sell it.

IMO very achievable
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Some positive news on the elite front - not sure if it will have an impact at the grass roots. Time will tell. At least it is postive news - pity there won't be a brand new stadium for us to use next door.


Project update: Australian Rugby Development Centre

The Sydney Cricket and Sports Ground Trust, Australian Rugby Union and the University of Technology Sydney, in partnership with the Australian Government and NSW State Government, are delivering the Australian Rugby Development Centre (ARDC), a world-class sporting, education and community hub at Moore Park.
In an Australian first, the ARDC will bring together elite athletes, a high-performance training facility, sector-leading sports scientists, UTS students and the community within Australia’s leading sports and entertainment precinct.
It also confirms the future of rugby at Moore Park with the Sydney Sevens, NSW Waratahs games and one Wallabies Test per year to be hosted at Allianz Stadium.
Developed in line with the 2012 SCGT masterplan, the ARDC will include:

  • Purpose-built UTS research and teaching laboratories for sport and exercise science and management courses
  • A high-performance facility for the Wallabies, Wallaroos, national men’s and women’s Sevens teams, junior development squads and Indigenous rugby
  • A cafe which can be utilised by the community and visitors to the ARDC
  • Facilities for the use of community groups and grassroots teams
  • An indoor training hall and rooftop running track
 
T

TOCC

Guest
27 rounds in a 8 team competition with 4 weeks of finals?
Uninterrupted that would be from the 1st of Feb - 10 Sep..
But that overlaps with both the June Test Series and the Rugby Championship.

Also the Wallabies have been a strong test nation because Australian players get to play alongside and against the worlds best players, if you dilute the number of Australian teams and remove the South Africans and Kiwis, the level of the competition will drop and so too will Australia's world standing.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
OK the calendar says it can't be done.

So lets simply assume the fall in SA ratings of 25% bounces back and does not continue to slide.

That the SA governments decision to enforce racial lines in the make up of SA teams will have no effect on both SA ratings as as I said the current fall of 25% will repair itself. With the racial player placement international rating will continue to climb and not fall.

The SA effected players will stay in SA or come go to NZ or Aust and not go to Europe and that the quality of both the Tri Nations and Super Rugby will improve.

Meaning we can all rely on the status que remaining the same no need to have an alternative ready to go.

The suits that tell us how to run the league are very smart they even got that Canadian firm experts they are to draw up the schedule and on ANZAC day we had how many Aust V NZ matches. Very smart those suits are.

OK ranting over blame the Hunter Reds and not enough sex.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
27 rounds in a 8 team competition with 4 weeks of finals?
Uninterrupted that would be from the 1st of Feb - 10 Sep..
But that overlaps with both the June Test Series and the Rugby Championship.

Also the Wallabies have been a strong test nation because Australian players get to play alongside and against the worlds best players, if you dilute the number of Australian teams and remove the South Africans and Kiwis, the level of the competition will drop and so too will Australia's world standing.


Which is why if we are to ever attempt to get a product on FTA it should be the NRC. That way we get the best of both worlds. The benefit of Super Rugby and hopefully more eyeballs watching tge game via the NRC.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
27 rounds in a 8 team competition with 4 weeks of finals?
Uninterrupted that would be from the 1st of Feb - 10 Sep..
But that overlaps with both the June Test Series and the Rugby Championship.

Also the Wallabies have been a strong test nation because Australian players get to play alongside and against the worlds best players, if you dilute the number of Australian teams and remove the South Africans and Kiwis, the level of the competition will drop and so too will Australia's world standing.

I generally agree with that.

One point that has largely been missed in the Super 18 expansion is the dilution of SA v NZ matches. The NZRU has long said that it won't entertain a trans-Tasman competition is because is wants regular matches against SA teams. It seems to me that the S18 is taking on a more trans-Tasman flavour then previously. More trans-Tasman games and more Aussie and Kiwi derbies mean more TV content at a watchable hour - which can't be a bad thing.

I can see some of the points that half is making, but I can't see how in the short to medium term we can run a full-time professional 10 team competition in Australia. I think that NRC is the medium - I'm not sure that it's current format optimises it's reach. As others have suggested, the next logical step is having a 8-10 NRC running for much longer. It is really difficult to build community engagement with such a short competition, held at a time when uncommitted supporters are either thinking of the beach or summer sport and the media is full of NRL and AFL finals.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
One big problem facing the NRC is that any strengthening, either in duration or numbers, can only come about to some extent at the expense of the club competitions.


That is not necessarily a bad thing, provided that the NRC does become a genuinely popular national product shown on FTA.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
I walked to Eastwood today as is my habit of many years around midday for a coffee and chat to a ageing and somewhat lessoning group. [age]

On my way I walked across Somerville Oval, [its Saturday] and again no games. I honestly can't remember when Epping last played their on a Saturday I think maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago. Last week Sunday afternoon there were a couple of games.

My sons well two of the three played for Epping or Epping / Hillview and I am talking and this scares me maybe 20 years ago Saturday was busy from early morning to late afternoon with the morning have both fields used the kids field and the main field.

Hopefully their may be a game again on Sunday but that was usual last week.

I walked through the tunnel under Eastwood station and walked past a game of soccer and I had a bit of time on my hand and went to the top oval were the Woodies played before TGM. Another game of soccer.

Both fields had teams arriving for future games. The Eastwood soccer team play in the same colours as the Woodies i.e white and blue I saw one of their coaches and we are mates and we had a chat. What amazed me as I was chatting was the number of Asian playing for the Eastwood teams maybe 15 to 20 % of the teams and in my chat I asked whats the biggest problem here.

His answer was space he said we have had to turn away players the fields are over used [you could see that especially the bottom one] he then told me within something like a 3 Kil radius there were another 5 clubs and we all have the same problem. I asked did he know how many players they have and he said no.

I then excused myself and went for coffee and chat and we as usual discussed the pretty girls walking by, business, the election, and sport and the NRL was discussed, a little bit about Football, and then some Rugby [no AFL] the carry on by the Tennis crew.

I asked like this was an AFL issue and posed a question about some local AFL ovals that get little use because of small player numbers. Everyone said the AFL should loose the fields because of the small player numbers.

I actually felt ashamed because latter in the day I went up to the two ovals opposite Epping boys and again saw no play when I was there. There could have been earlier in the day.

Essentially we have control of four fields and unless something happens tomorrow cannot get a single game.

Yet soccer, basketball and baseball all seem to have growing player bases and I can see all these four fields lost to especially baseball who are screaming out for fields.

I understand its only one oval, and every other oval may be over played and barren of grass cover like the soccer field at Eastwood [lower one] . However I think not.

In addition to the already crowded sporting market we have this last week both the NRL and AFL say they will be forming teams in a new 10 Australian team National Domestic Netball competition which according to media reports has a signed FTA broadcast deal with 9. Plus Football is very confident of being free to air with Steven Lowy saying last week the next media deal will be have a FTA match and will use everything we can to provide Football fans with access to the A-League in more and meaningful ways than ever before.

I have no idea how to solve nay sorry compete with this other than to create our own National Domestic Competition eerrr sorry we have the NRC. I should say a meaningful and creditable National Domestic Competition.

Also this week, Fairfax has indicated it will cease printing the SMH Monday to Friday and only have a weekend edition. Fairfax seems to be in very deep poo and have over the years arguably been our best non Fox media outlet.

I put this just to add, not to any present risk, we have our 60 million dollars plus as the dollar keeps falling. My concern as I have been stressing is we need to do something in Australia and extra 2 Japanese sides will not keep the four fields.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
I've got the silver bullet answer. Get more kids to play the game.

But you need to look at the product. Many of us love it for its esoteric element, but that's difficult to sell to a kid who wants to kick the ball and take screamers over his mates, ala AFL. Rugby in Australia has gotten as far as it did due to the private school captive audience. But that can't be relied upon anymore with AFL making a play for that audience too.

So the answer is to go all in and spend big to offer opportunities for kids to experience the game. But that's essentially impossible because of the trickle down economics of the ARU machine. We're in a unique situation compared to our Sanzar partners with the stiff competition from two football codes who are the peak of their respective codes and don't need to compete with Toulon money for its brightest stars.

Not to be a pessimist, but I kind of think the ARU can't really do much more than they are now. They made their mistakes 15 years ago when they failed to invest the windfall from a successful Wallabies team and RWC and instead of plowing that back into the grass roots they chose to spend it all at the top of the pyramid. The NRC is a great start, if they can get to to FTA they will have worked miracles.

Otherwise the answer is to plow as much as we can into junior development coordinators, stop the ridiculous levies on people already playing the game and hope and pray the Wallabies have another period of success
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)
Isn't this thread a barrel of laughs. :)

I went to the Tahs game last night and before the game there was a March passed by local junior clubs (players 10 years below)
Clubs from the Hunter region, Bathurst, Mudgee, Cowra, Dubbo, Woy Woy then Blakehurst, Sylvania, Penrith, Oatley, Hills District and many many more. The kids and their parents filled one end of the Stadium.
I was genuinely impressed with the number of clubs and the excitement of the kids.
 
Top