WorkingClassRugger
David Codey (61)
My understanding, at least from what my cousin who attended Hurlestone is that the entire school is moving from its current location to somewhere in the Hawkesbury region of the city.
Declining participation and ARU plans for the future
- Thread starter RugbyReg
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My understanding, at least from what my cousin who attended Hurlestone is that the entire school is moving from its current location to somewhere in the Hawkesbury region of the city.
Froggy
John Solomon (38)
They are going to open an agricultural high school out there (or at least have promised to do so) which I imagine will include boarding, using the old Hawkesbury Ag College campus, part of which is currently a UWS campus.
My point was, the selective school at Glenfield that was Hurlstone will remain where it is (I don't know whether it will still have the Hurlstone name), but like most selective schools, rugby will struggle to exist.
On that subject, in my two last years of school, 1972 and 1973, Sydney Boys High were GPS premiers and equal premiers, I told that to a current GPS schoolboy the other day and he thought I was on drugs.
My point was, the selective school at Glenfield that was Hurlstone will remain where it is (I don't know whether it will still have the Hurlstone name), but like most selective schools, rugby will struggle to exist.
On that subject, in my two last years of school, 1972 and 1973, Sydney Boys High were GPS premiers and equal premiers, I told that to a current GPS schoolboy the other day and he thought I was on drugs.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
half
Alan Cameron (40)
Strew, Froggy has a point about the selective schools as Wamberai alluded to earlier. Also we are talking about the affect say 15 to 20 years out because today we are still living on what was done 15 to 30 years ago.
It’s the quality of player we are not getting as well as the number, like the selective school players are no longer there. So to the players coming through the GPS and CAS schools are not coming in the same numbers. Further these schools are also changing population demographics.
We have relied on the Selective / GPS / CAS schools to essentially be our training academies. The selective are gone, CAS schools the argument is soccer is on balance the number sport and GPS schools rugby still well in front but nowhere near what it used to be.
Not sure when it started but one of the big AFL clubs in Melbourne build a massive training facility for itself.
Some years ago the Central Coast Mariners said they were going to build the best training facility in the country 10 years on and its about 60% complete see article below.
RL in response to AFL and soccer academies have decided to build four training academies in western Sydney.
Where are the rugby ones.
We have lost players from rep sides in western Sydney at U 14 & U 15 for a while now.
This is what other codes offer their best, I have given an example from each code, if you want to watch something beyond scary look at the first soccer link [youtube] look and compare to rugby.
*************************************
AFL example
VICTORIAN clubs have been given seed funding to establish club-branded academies in allocated areas throughout Victoria and the Northern Territory in a radical plan to attract youngsters from non-traditional football backgrounds to the game.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-02-03/victorian-clubs-handed-afl-funding-for-academies
*****************************
RL Example
The Panthers Rugby League Academy, a $22 million state-of-the-art facility located behind Panthers Leagues Club in the Western Sydney suburb of Penrith, has been opened, Fully funded by the Panthers Group, the Academy will now become the fulltime training and development facility for the Panthers senior and junior squads, along with housing Panthers rugby league administration.
http://www.ausleisure.com.au/news/penrith-panthers-open-22-million-rugby-league-academy
**************************
Soccer example
The City Football Group has unveiled its new Australian training and administration facility
CENTRAL Coast Mariners will score a huge goal today when their $100 million Centre of Excellence at Tuggerah is officially opened by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.
Mariners chief executive officer Shaun Mielekamp said the club would also reveal a masterplan for the site which they intend to be the business and sporting hub of the Central Coast.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...y/news-story/8582b09efdd9356a8f8299c81f2184cf
It’s the quality of player we are not getting as well as the number, like the selective school players are no longer there. So to the players coming through the GPS and CAS schools are not coming in the same numbers. Further these schools are also changing population demographics.
We have relied on the Selective / GPS / CAS schools to essentially be our training academies. The selective are gone, CAS schools the argument is soccer is on balance the number sport and GPS schools rugby still well in front but nowhere near what it used to be.
Not sure when it started but one of the big AFL clubs in Melbourne build a massive training facility for itself.
Some years ago the Central Coast Mariners said they were going to build the best training facility in the country 10 years on and its about 60% complete see article below.
RL in response to AFL and soccer academies have decided to build four training academies in western Sydney.
Where are the rugby ones.
We have lost players from rep sides in western Sydney at U 14 & U 15 for a while now.
This is what other codes offer their best, I have given an example from each code, if you want to watch something beyond scary look at the first soccer link [youtube] look and compare to rugby.
*************************************
AFL example
VICTORIAN clubs have been given seed funding to establish club-branded academies in allocated areas throughout Victoria and the Northern Territory in a radical plan to attract youngsters from non-traditional football backgrounds to the game.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-02-03/victorian-clubs-handed-afl-funding-for-academies
*****************************
RL Example
The Panthers Rugby League Academy, a $22 million state-of-the-art facility located behind Panthers Leagues Club in the Western Sydney suburb of Penrith, has been opened, Fully funded by the Panthers Group, the Academy will now become the fulltime training and development facility for the Panthers senior and junior squads, along with housing Panthers rugby league administration.
http://www.ausleisure.com.au/news/penrith-panthers-open-22-million-rugby-league-academy
**************************
Soccer example
The City Football Group has unveiled its new Australian training and administration facility
CENTRAL Coast Mariners will score a huge goal today when their $100 million Centre of Excellence at Tuggerah is officially opened by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.
Mariners chief executive officer Shaun Mielekamp said the club would also reveal a masterplan for the site which they intend to be the business and sporting hub of the Central Coast.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...y/news-story/8582b09efdd9356a8f8299c81f2184cf
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Where are the rugby academies?
Didn't the ARU previously run a central academy that was widely condemned by all in club land because it essentially quarantined the talent an academies?
Didn't the ARU previously run a central academy that was widely condemned by all in club land because it essentially quarantined the talent an academies?
half
Alan Cameron (40)
TWAS
Rightly so.
If you look at what the other codes do it’s all based from a club perspective not the governing body. The governing body set rules and then let the market work within the guidelines.
Pulver went so far as to withdraw funding at times sighting those who get the funding do not always invest it wisely. For the love of Mary in who’s value system are we talking?
Whoever started this thread should be given a medal it allows discussion on what previously has been ignored or papered over.
As a code we no longer have the number and quality of juniors we had say 10 years ago. Further in this same period Rl has recovered from the SL war and left News to run its own show, the AFL has cough cough cough conned billions from state governments to build them stadiums, the A-League has started and the W-League, Basketball has stalled and restarted, and netball is coming on leaps and bounds.
As I understand it, AFL, RL, Football and Netball are all building academies and I think thought their clubs not by their governing bodies.
TWAS I am getting older and as I posted before it’s not so much I am scared of other codes. More jealous of how well in comparison to how Rugby has been managed.
We cannot ignore it because the 5 to 12 year olds today will be the what our game is in 20 years.
If a little always broke club like the Central Coast can built a training academy why can’t our teams.
As I posted RL plans four major academies in WS, Football has plans for all of its 10 clubs to have academies within 5 years. Matthew Bourke played for the Carlingford Redbacks soccer team and around 11 or 12 changed or moved across to Rugby. Two things the soccer training was poor and in soccer he had nowhere to go whereas in Rugby he did and could get access to good training. Today this would not apply if we still had junior sides the good player would move to a soccer or league team.
A long time mate has a joke he has been saying for about 40 years, and it goes something like this. “When God invented the world’s sports he had to try and even it out. So he made Rugby the best game but to help the others gave it the worst administrator’s.”
Rightly so.
If you look at what the other codes do it’s all based from a club perspective not the governing body. The governing body set rules and then let the market work within the guidelines.
Pulver went so far as to withdraw funding at times sighting those who get the funding do not always invest it wisely. For the love of Mary in who’s value system are we talking?
Whoever started this thread should be given a medal it allows discussion on what previously has been ignored or papered over.
As a code we no longer have the number and quality of juniors we had say 10 years ago. Further in this same period Rl has recovered from the SL war and left News to run its own show, the AFL has cough cough cough conned billions from state governments to build them stadiums, the A-League has started and the W-League, Basketball has stalled and restarted, and netball is coming on leaps and bounds.
As I understand it, AFL, RL, Football and Netball are all building academies and I think thought their clubs not by their governing bodies.
TWAS I am getting older and as I posted before it’s not so much I am scared of other codes. More jealous of how well in comparison to how Rugby has been managed.
We cannot ignore it because the 5 to 12 year olds today will be the what our game is in 20 years.
If a little always broke club like the Central Coast can built a training academy why can’t our teams.
As I posted RL plans four major academies in WS, Football has plans for all of its 10 clubs to have academies within 5 years. Matthew Bourke played for the Carlingford Redbacks soccer team and around 11 or 12 changed or moved across to Rugby. Two things the soccer training was poor and in soccer he had nowhere to go whereas in Rugby he did and could get access to good training. Today this would not apply if we still had junior sides the good player would move to a soccer or league team.
A long time mate has a joke he has been saying for about 40 years, and it goes something like this. “When God invented the world’s sports he had to try and even it out. So he made Rugby the best game but to help the others gave it the worst administrator’s.”
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Yes it was rightly so, if you ignore what other codes do as well.
Draft hopefuls are generally quarantined to the TAC Cup rather than testing themselves out against men in the VFL or equivalent.
Those that do are too old for the TAC Cup.
Most want to compare what rugby 20 years old doing compared to AFL 20 year olds or older, but that's not the relevant comparison. In rugby youth recruitment is targeted at around 20 year olds because they are close to ready but in AFL this is 17-18 year olds because it's a younger mans game.
These players are quarantined in youth development set ups and it's not until they are signed to a senior list or too old that they actually play in the relevant state league.
Rugby is now starting to align closer to the AFL with the development of the JGC and most importantly the Super 20s competition that places the players in these elite training environments and plays them against the best of their peers at the prime recruitment age, similarly to the TAC Cup.
As for your mate's joke, yes it's a goodie. Who cares that all other sports have had about a decade to hone professionalism and therefore have professional structures, whilst rugby has been amateur until 1996 and as a result the variance is not necessarily the central administration, but the lack of actual clubs that were built on being able to pay players and survive like the other professional codes, whilst rugby continues to have people attempt to pull it back to the clubs that have steadily declined since they needed to pay players to get the use of them exclusively.
Draft hopefuls are generally quarantined to the TAC Cup rather than testing themselves out against men in the VFL or equivalent.
Those that do are too old for the TAC Cup.
Most want to compare what rugby 20 years old doing compared to AFL 20 year olds or older, but that's not the relevant comparison. In rugby youth recruitment is targeted at around 20 year olds because they are close to ready but in AFL this is 17-18 year olds because it's a younger mans game.
These players are quarantined in youth development set ups and it's not until they are signed to a senior list or too old that they actually play in the relevant state league.
Rugby is now starting to align closer to the AFL with the development of the JGC and most importantly the Super 20s competition that places the players in these elite training environments and plays them against the best of their peers at the prime recruitment age, similarly to the TAC Cup.
As for your mate's joke, yes it's a goodie. Who cares that all other sports have had about a decade to hone professionalism and therefore have professional structures, whilst rugby has been amateur until 1996 and as a result the variance is not necessarily the central administration, but the lack of actual clubs that were built on being able to pay players and survive like the other professional codes, whilst rugby continues to have people attempt to pull it back to the clubs that have steadily declined since they needed to pay players to get the use of them exclusively.
half
Alan Cameron (40)
TWAS
I read once that over a certain population size there are a percentage who are capable of playing sport at a high level.
some sports say Basketball have height requirements as well.
But lets says the backs in both league and union and many AFL players and many soccer players could play another game if they had been brought up in it.
Tim Cahill could have been a centre, George Gregan could have play a wide winger in soccer.
These players are being increasingly identified at 12 to 15 and put in academies, they are never their to trail at 20 as you correctly say because they are in another code.
I don't have a solution, but do know many of our best players at 15 to 17 have been lost to RL & AFL in WS. How do I know, because a mate of mine has a 21 year old son who went to a sports high school at Seven Hills. He played both League and Rugby. He went on a Rugby tour to Japan as a 17 year old.
His Dad, the same guy thats tells the joke, often told me the AFL would look at all the rep players in union, league, cricket, and soccer and often try and poach their best players. He says a lot of cricket and union rep players took the contracts [yes their was a lot of money maybe 30 to 50 K per year on offer] to switch codes. He said league offered smaller contracts and kept most, and soccer held out national duties and mega overseas deals to keep theirs. Soccer also lost some players but generally kept their best.
A decent break away say John Eales type build could play AFL up front as could a decent tall goalkeeper in soccer.
Maybe your right and we will catch up in time. I hope so but there is real competition at the 12 to 15 age for the future best players.
I read once that over a certain population size there are a percentage who are capable of playing sport at a high level.
some sports say Basketball have height requirements as well.
But lets says the backs in both league and union and many AFL players and many soccer players could play another game if they had been brought up in it.
Tim Cahill could have been a centre, George Gregan could have play a wide winger in soccer.
These players are being increasingly identified at 12 to 15 and put in academies, they are never their to trail at 20 as you correctly say because they are in another code.
I don't have a solution, but do know many of our best players at 15 to 17 have been lost to RL & AFL in WS. How do I know, because a mate of mine has a 21 year old son who went to a sports high school at Seven Hills. He played both League and Rugby. He went on a Rugby tour to Japan as a 17 year old.
His Dad, the same guy thats tells the joke, often told me the AFL would look at all the rep players in union, league, cricket, and soccer and often try and poach their best players. He says a lot of cricket and union rep players took the contracts [yes their was a lot of money maybe 30 to 50 K per year on offer] to switch codes. He said league offered smaller contracts and kept most, and soccer held out national duties and mega overseas deals to keep theirs. Soccer also lost some players but generally kept their best.
A decent break away say John Eales type build could play AFL up front as could a decent tall goalkeeper in soccer.
Maybe your right and we will catch up in time. I hope so but there is real competition at the 12 to 15 age for the future best players.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
I'm not necessarily saying we will catch up.
I'm just pointing out that there are no clubs below the national and state administration that were anywhere near as commercially developed as the NSWRL and VFL Clubs that formed the NRL and AFL, were, even in the early 1980s.
Top AFL players were getting paid up to $100,000 in 1980 and the clubs were able to sustain this without any significant broadcast deal. What turnover did the collective Shute Shield clubs have as a whole in 1980 for example?
The amateur ethos are a great aspect of the game, but they hold it back at times also. like your comments of young players nowhere near the top level being picked up on $30-50k contracts.
How does that work when any time rugby looks to sign an ex Australian Schoolboy from the NRL, people say he should start out in Shute Shield?
Many people genuinely think players in 35 man squads of the franchises should have to earn their stripes in semi-amateur club rugby, whilst other codes are throwing contracts at 17 year olds without any critique from its fans?
The ARU and State Unions are stuck in a position where they have to appease the (many absolutely archaic) existing fans, whilst competing with much more progressive codes who's own fans do not scrutinize their game to the same level.
I'm just pointing out that there are no clubs below the national and state administration that were anywhere near as commercially developed as the NSWRL and VFL Clubs that formed the NRL and AFL, were, even in the early 1980s.
Top AFL players were getting paid up to $100,000 in 1980 and the clubs were able to sustain this without any significant broadcast deal. What turnover did the collective Shute Shield clubs have as a whole in 1980 for example?
The amateur ethos are a great aspect of the game, but they hold it back at times also. like your comments of young players nowhere near the top level being picked up on $30-50k contracts.
How does that work when any time rugby looks to sign an ex Australian Schoolboy from the NRL, people say he should start out in Shute Shield?
Many people genuinely think players in 35 man squads of the franchises should have to earn their stripes in semi-amateur club rugby, whilst other codes are throwing contracts at 17 year olds without any critique from its fans?
The ARU and State Unions are stuck in a position where they have to appease the (many absolutely archaic) existing fans, whilst competing with much more progressive codes who's own fans do not scrutinize their game to the same level.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
^^^^^i agree with most of TWAS points,except the bit about the Schoolboy League reps.
They are tainted fruit when they arrive to rugby.
They have been in league systems for 2 or 3 years post School,and have been passed over.
Signing a 17 yo full of promise is totally different to signing a 21-22 yo that didn't live up to his promise.
Of course they should earn their stripes.
They are tainted fruit when they arrive to rugby.
They have been in league systems for 2 or 3 years post School,and have been passed over.
Signing a 17 yo full of promise is totally different to signing a 21-22 yo that didn't live up to his promise.
Of course they should earn their stripes.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
You say they're tainted ILTW. But generally the ones that get the offers are the better ones.
You have to consider its a business decision for the clubs.
Who's closer to being ready to play? The one who's been in professional systems already for a couple of years or the 17 year old?
The 17 year old may not even be ready for 3 years. Look at Holloway and Horwitz for example. They've been with the Tahs since 2013 and only finally got regular game time this season.
With a limited squad why would you use one contract on a player who may not even be ready until the contract has expired?
You have to consider its a business decision for the clubs.
Who's closer to being ready to play? The one who's been in professional systems already for a couple of years or the 17 year old?
The 17 year old may not even be ready for 3 years. Look at Holloway and Horwitz for example. They've been with the Tahs since 2013 and only finally got regular game time this season.
With a limited squad why would you use one contract on a player who may not even be ready until the contract has expired?
half
Alan Cameron (40)
TWAS
I concede all points you have made as being correct. Trouble I have with agreeing with you is what then is the future?
I want to take the emphasis you placed on the 17 year old not being either ready physically or in experience to trail against 20 to 25 year olds and you made a particular point that other codes can and do this.
You also raised the absolutely true observation that rugby unlike the AFL cannot throw 30 to 50 k contracts at 15 year old boys. Simply the money is not there.
League for years has had the SG Bull, Harold Matthews for many years ran an under 23 competition. The AFL has similar junior competitions. Your point being both the NRL as a body and the league clubs can support and pay for this.
So if we say the NRL and AFL plus Cricket are say tier one sports in Australia, then rugby and soccer and basketball and netball are tier two sports, hockey volley ball would be say tier three sports.
The tier two sports all struggle for revenue.
How is it then that the A-League who on a per club basic of revenue from media are well behind Super Rugby teams can run junior sides and all today have academies and three club have built massive training facilities. Melbourne City have rich owners, but the Mariners are always on the bones of you know what, and the Wellington side only recently received permission to play in the league and they are building something special.
League, AFL and soccer play their 17 year olds in their youth leagues of their clubs for the most part.
Basketball also has many success stories in this junior development area.
My actual fix has most on this site thinking I should be sent to the funny farm and I will not again go there. However I ask in the name of the holy mother Mary how can a little on the bones of their arse club like the Mariners build what they have to date in 10 years and the Tahs have nothing and yet we have the Macquarie Bank Elephant at Concord just sitting there watching the cars crawl along Parramatta Road.
I watched again that Melbourne City vid, it sent chills up my spine. The management of that club by the holy mother again that is what we are up against.
I concede all points you have made as being correct. Trouble I have with agreeing with you is what then is the future?
I want to take the emphasis you placed on the 17 year old not being either ready physically or in experience to trail against 20 to 25 year olds and you made a particular point that other codes can and do this.
You also raised the absolutely true observation that rugby unlike the AFL cannot throw 30 to 50 k contracts at 15 year old boys. Simply the money is not there.
League for years has had the SG Bull, Harold Matthews for many years ran an under 23 competition. The AFL has similar junior competitions. Your point being both the NRL as a body and the league clubs can support and pay for this.
So if we say the NRL and AFL plus Cricket are say tier one sports in Australia, then rugby and soccer and basketball and netball are tier two sports, hockey volley ball would be say tier three sports.
The tier two sports all struggle for revenue.
How is it then that the A-League who on a per club basic of revenue from media are well behind Super Rugby teams can run junior sides and all today have academies and three club have built massive training facilities. Melbourne City have rich owners, but the Mariners are always on the bones of you know what, and the Wellington side only recently received permission to play in the league and they are building something special.
League, AFL and soccer play their 17 year olds in their youth leagues of their clubs for the most part.
Basketball also has many success stories in this junior development area.
My actual fix has most on this site thinking I should be sent to the funny farm and I will not again go there. However I ask in the name of the holy mother Mary how can a little on the bones of their arse club like the Mariners build what they have to date in 10 years and the Tahs have nothing and yet we have the Macquarie Bank Elephant at Concord just sitting there watching the cars crawl along Parramatta Road.
I watched again that Melbourne City vid, it sent chills up my spine. The management of that club by the holy mother again that is what we are up against.
Private ownership is the reason that some of the A League clubs are able to invest outside of their main team in development centres etc.
There is no doubt rugby is improving this. The under 20s sides have become far more organised in recent years and each Super Rugby team has one. This season they played a week to week tournament in the opening rounds of Super Rugby and hopefully that expands in the next couple of years.
The pathways to the professional game have improved substantially in the last few years too. The Junior Gold Cup is an important step and shows the ARU taking more control over their destiny by taking an active interest in the juniors rather than hoping the private school system spits out enough quality players at ages 17 and 18.
I think we are doing a good job on pathways for the elite junior players. The biggest problem Australian rugby has in my opinion is producing the next generation of fans. We exist in a landscape where sporting participation across the board is decreasing and the traditional rugby strongholds are slowly withering due to changing demographics and rugby no longer having the same level of importance and impact on the culture in the elite private schools.
There is no doubt rugby is improving this. The under 20s sides have become far more organised in recent years and each Super Rugby team has one. This season they played a week to week tournament in the opening rounds of Super Rugby and hopefully that expands in the next couple of years.
The pathways to the professional game have improved substantially in the last few years too. The Junior Gold Cup is an important step and shows the ARU taking more control over their destiny by taking an active interest in the juniors rather than hoping the private school system spits out enough quality players at ages 17 and 18.
I think we are doing a good job on pathways for the elite junior players. The biggest problem Australian rugby has in my opinion is producing the next generation of fans. We exist in a landscape where sporting participation across the board is decreasing and the traditional rugby strongholds are slowly withering due to changing demographics and rugby no longer having the same level of importance and impact on the culture in the elite private schools.
WorkingClassRugger
David Codey (61)
Mate, Melb City are owned by the same group that own Manchester City. They have been able to build that facility thanks to the owners literally having money to burn. Also, I've just watched the video. It looks fairly standard for professional sports these days in most developed nations. If you want to look at something spin chilling look up the Oregon Ducks Football facility.
Jagman
Trevor Allan (34)
The later, in contrast to the former, is doing very well in Western Sydney.
T
TOCC
Guest
In terms of academies, a big issue is Australian Rugby been unable to leverage government grants, this is an area the AFL actually invests a lot of money into, they don't build these academies purely on AFL money, they put bids, proposals and conduct the due diligence to capture government grants are multiple levels of governmebt.
Ballymore might a stadium first but it still has the potential to be a great academy, it's centrally located and on a large piece of land allowing for multiple field. ARU has just invested in the new HPU centre at Moore Park, which is really just a glorified office block and gym, the previous proposal offered significantly more for 'community rugby'.
Ballymore might a stadium first but it still has the potential to be a great academy, it's centrally located and on a large piece of land allowing for multiple field. ARU has just invested in the new HPU centre at Moore Park, which is really just a glorified office block and gym, the previous proposal offered significantly more for 'community rugby'.
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
T
TOCC
Guest
Yes very impressive, but it's not a community facility, it's not an academy facility, it's a high performance facility aimed at developing the one team..
If we want to talk participation rates and academies to improve the grassroots level then you don't need 90% of that stuff, there is talk of the ARU opening an academy in Western Sydney, what would they need? 2 or 3 floodlit ovals, a gym, canteen and change room? But more importantly it would have staff and coaches to run the programs and engage with local schools and teams.
If we want to talk participation rates and academies to improve the grassroots level then you don't need 90% of that stuff, there is talk of the ARU opening an academy in Western Sydney, what would they need? 2 or 3 floodlit ovals, a gym, canteen and change room? But more importantly it would have staff and coaches to run the programs and engage with local schools and teams.