Strewthcobber
Mark Ella (57)
My local club in Sydney's south costs $130 for juniors per season (up to u14)
http://www.oatleyrugby.com/juniors/juniors-contacts.html
http://www.oatleyrugby.com/juniors/juniors-contacts.html
Declining participation and ARU plans for the future
- Thread starter RugbyReg
- Start date
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
I never said these courses are not charged. I said they cost more than they recover in fees.
How do you cover this shortfall?
As for what it costs, you fail to consider one thing. The individual clubs.
Now I researched the costs for all codes on the Gold Coast in 2015.
What I found was rugby was $250 for juniors.
Soccer was $310 for 6-11.
League and AFL were both around $200.
This differed club to club. Why? Because some clubs are better run and more commercially savvy than others.
The ARU can't micromanage every club and get their revenue to the same level as the individual league clubs, which is why some can only charge around $100 per player in 2016.
But if some clubs from other codes cannot provide the sport much cheaper than rugby, I'd say that's a good indication of where the central/state/local admin fees lie.
How do you cover this shortfall?
As for what it costs, you fail to consider one thing. The individual clubs.
Now I researched the costs for all codes on the Gold Coast in 2015.
What I found was rugby was $250 for juniors.
Soccer was $310 for 6-11.
League and AFL were both around $200.
This differed club to club. Why? Because some clubs are better run and more commercially savvy than others.
The ARU can't micromanage every club and get their revenue to the same level as the individual league clubs, which is why some can only charge around $100 per player in 2016.
But if some clubs from other codes cannot provide the sport much cheaper than rugby, I'd say that's a good indication of where the central/state/local admin fees lie.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Looks like some good debate as at grass roots and need to make game open to all need to be cost competitive with other codes for kids to play.
Better solution is to grow the pie so more revenue and less need for levy's and more funding for grass roots. But we all know that is far from easy to.
All chickens and eggs stuff and interconnected. Need some smart cookies in rugby to fix the mess it is in. Not having a go at aru as can over last two years see making real efforts to try and change and address the problems but rugby is screwed at grass roots level and that won't change any time soon. Got to change but will probably take 20+ years and many would question whether too late for rugby to be anything more than a niche sport.
Spoke to foxsports guy Saturday night at function I was at where this was his view of the world, and hard to argue against it.
Will take some hard work and probably something left field for rugby to emerge in 20 years as more than a minor niche sport. But with innovation seeing in game finally at least compared to couple of years ago we have some chance - not much - but some.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
N
NTT
Guest
If you have one employee from RugbyWA running the coaching course, eg a 2 day course over a weekend, wages for said employee, covered by salary is approximately $450. 20 people attending at $90 per person equals $1800. Seems very much like the courses do make more than they cost. All the courses information is set by the ARU so is available via emails and other sources which cost another $100 to facilitate. $1800 - $550 = $1250 profit. Again that is not a loss. Where is your logic that these courses cost more than they make?
I did take into consideration the individual clubs. Clubs in Perth do not benefit from poker machine money. NSW, ACT, QLD and Melbourne clubs do. This is a major source of revenue with which Perth clubs have had to make do without for a long time. This means that to do the same as a premier rugby club over east, the Perth clubs have done so with less funding. Perth clubs need to charge higher fees to cover basic operating costs, jerseys, footys, tackle bags etc. Therefore if it is possible to free up money to support more grassroots, it needs to be done. League clubs in Perth are the same, no poker machine money, but once again are managing to provide their sport for a lesser cost to its participants even without the grant money a professional franchise potentially brings. And they just announced they are giving grassroots more money! Even playing fees in NZ are only $50 per season.
The ARU are not there to micromanage clubs as you say. The ARL does not either, actually none of the other codes governing bodies do. But they are there to do what is best for the sport and its participants across the whole country. As you can see by our discussions, what is best for QLD is not necessarily whats best for South Australia, Western Australia, Victoria or the other states who operate on varying models of operation and levels of funding. What can be done for our sport is innovative thinking, reduction of burden of over administration and reallocation of wasteful spending towards growing the game, making participation more affordable and increasing participation.
Not only was I a village club secretary but I participated in all meetings higher up the chain: district, Metropolitan Western Zone, Sydney JRU and NSWJRU. There was no subsidy from NSWRU or the ARU involved in the running of the junior competitions in my time, the only support either of these bodies dished out was the expense of providing some referees and the obligatory SmartRugby tuneups at the beginning of each season. Even then we had to pay full freight to attend refs' courses.
To say the ARU "subsidises" junior rugby wasn't the case in my time.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
I'll assume your just missing the point.
Just because you haven't see a "credit" or money flowing back it does not mean it's not subsidized.
The point is that what the ARU receives from fees is less than:
What it costs the ARU to perform it's function in the grassroots
+
What it grants below to the States for use in grassroots.
That is the subsidization.
Either that, or the ARU is making money off fees. But so is every single other code with comparable fees. And the whole discussion is changed.
But considering that in 2015, $5.5M was still passed on to community rugby and the states, I doubt that is the case.
Just because you haven't see a "credit" or money flowing back it does not mean it's not subsidized.
The point is that what the ARU receives from fees is less than:
What it costs the ARU to perform it's function in the grassroots
+
What it grants below to the States for use in grassroots.
That is the subsidization.
Either that, or the ARU is making money off fees. But so is every single other code with comparable fees. And the whole discussion is changed.
But considering that in 2015, $5.5M was still passed on to community rugby and the states, I doubt that is the case.
Not one bit, TWaS. I was minutely involved in the costs of running both my junior club and the competition as a whole (it was western Sydney in those days, not Sydney-wide). Added to the weekly comps there were the representative teams to organise and fund. I say once again, the ARU gave us nothing, ALL costs were paid for by the constituent clubs.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Lindommer I never said the ARU gave anything.
The point I am making is just because you weren't given anything, it does not mean the ARU were not subsidizing.
Currently between District, State and ARU fees it costs around $150 per player I think (there abouts). This is likely to pay people to perform functions, run costs, insurances and overheads, etc. at all 3 levels.
The change has primarily been due to the ARU fees going up. If this previously was only charged at $90 per player, but it was costing $150 per player, that $60 is the ARU subsidization.
You may never see it and never know about it because it's all determined before the fees are set out.
The ARU has been granting considerable sums to the states in all their annual reports. If the your comp was not receiving anything, that's not the ARU's fault and not the ARU providing anything. That's the NSWRU. Hence why they charge fees on top of what the ARU grants them every year.
The point I am making is just because you weren't given anything, it does not mean the ARU were not subsidizing.
Currently between District, State and ARU fees it costs around $150 per player I think (there abouts). This is likely to pay people to perform functions, run costs, insurances and overheads, etc. at all 3 levels.
The change has primarily been due to the ARU fees going up. If this previously was only charged at $90 per player, but it was costing $150 per player, that $60 is the ARU subsidization.
You may never see it and never know about it because it's all determined before the fees are set out.
The ARU has been granting considerable sums to the states in all their annual reports. If the your comp was not receiving anything, that's not the ARU's fault and not the ARU providing anything. That's the NSWRU. Hence why they charge fees on top of what the ARU grants them every year.
There are none so blind as those who will not see, or in your case, TWaS, so deaf as those who will not hear. I don't know what I can add to what I posted above: ALL costs (including insurance) incurred with running junior rugby competitions in my experience were paid for by the constituent clubs. Apart from some (minor) support with SmartRugby certification and referees for representative matches.
My last word on this topic.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Lindo, you do see the irony in you criticizing me for the same thing you are doing, right?
ALL costs of what they were charged were paid. My point is that you don't know what the full cost was. You only know what you were charged from above. Central admin, etc. this all costs money. That's why other sports tend to be more expensive, because they don't have a professional arm to subsidize the cost of this without you ever knowing.
That's probably why Hockey clubs are charging over $500 for senior players.
TBH, that's my problem with what he says. It's all about what used to work. And that worked with NRL doing what it did back in 1995 and other nations doing what they did in 1995.
The world has moved on from that. NRL clubs spend more on facilities, etc. They pay more. Other countries we compete with spend more, etc.
ALL costs of what they were charged were paid. My point is that you don't know what the full cost was. You only know what you were charged from above. Central admin, etc. this all costs money. That's why other sports tend to be more expensive, because they don't have a professional arm to subsidize the cost of this without you ever knowing.
That's probably why Hockey clubs are charging over $500 for senior players.
TBH, that's my problem with what he says. It's all about what used to work. And that worked with NRL doing what it did back in 1995 and other nations doing what they did in 1995.
The world has moved on from that. NRL clubs spend more on facilities, etc. They pay more. Other countries we compete with spend more, etc.
Interesting article about the declining audiences for the Mitre 10 Cup.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-change?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-change?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
Quite clearly this is Pulver's fault too.
Mods Note
Posts about the possibility of a rebel Club Competition have been moved to this thread:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/tier-3-5-an-alternate-nrc.17206/
Continue posting about declining Player numbers and the ARU Strategic Plan on this thread but take the conversation about the Alternate NRC (and Club disgruntlement with ARU) to http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/tier-3-5-an-alternate-nrc.17206/
Posts about the possibility of a rebel Club Competition have been moved to this thread:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/tier-3-5-an-alternate-nrc.17206/
Continue posting about declining Player numbers and the ARU Strategic Plan on this thread but take the conversation about the Alternate NRC (and Club disgruntlement with ARU) to http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/tier-3-5-an-alternate-nrc.17206/
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Lindo - you know that JON was a banker right? What do bankers tell us about fees? They cover "actual" costs. They really subsidise the services they provide to the customers who are nothing but a drain on their precious time.
half
Alan Cameron (40)
The Roar had an article today over 683 comments when I read it.
Its from Spiro and its quite long but the little bit that stood out for me was the following and I wonder aloud if its right.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/10/24/rogue-cheika-tarnishes-wallabies
I do wonder if NZ turned its back on us as Spiro is suggesting what effect it would have on things like ratings, media space, sponsors etc.
Spiro paints a very negative picture and I am not sure do we shot the messenger or does he have a point.
Its from Spiro and its quite long but the little bit that stood out for me was the following and I wonder aloud if its right.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/10/24/rogue-cheika-tarnishes-wallabies
I do wonder if NZ turned its back on us as Spiro is suggesting what effect it would have on things like ratings, media space, sponsors etc.
Spiro paints a very negative picture and I am not sure do we shot the messenger or does he have a point.
stoff
Bill McLean (32)
How does that work in practice. The NZ domestic market is not big enough to provide sufficient revenue to support their game. They are as dependent upon super rugby as we are. I think their NPC rights are worth about $70m for the Rv rights deal duration. Obviously whatever comes in place will increase this, but playing in the middle of the night in South Africa isn't going to fill that gap
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Nz fear in 15 years rugby will be a minor sport in Australia. Well does not take a rocket scientist to work that out. Which is why super rugby product and rules may suit sides like nz and sa but not for Australia. We either break from the shackles of sanzar and irb and do what is needed for rugby to be competitive against other football codes or continue to die a slow and painful death. The interests of oz rugby are not aligned with the interests of super rugby and international rugby. And that should be obvious to all involved in Australian rugby. We need to take control of our own destiny as sanzar or irb won't save us.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
In simple terms nz does not have same competition from other football codes as for example it has one professional league side which plays in the nrl. Nz is also a country of 3m, vs Australia 23m or so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Geez a real Nostradamus prediction from NZ there........
Rugby already is and already has been a minority sport in Australia. Since the inception of Rugby League, when has Rugby not been a minority sport in any state, let alone the country?
Rugby already is and already has been a minority sport in Australia. Since the inception of Rugby League, when has Rugby not been a minority sport in any state, let alone the country?