Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[tragic]

Quality post as you outline important grass roots info people should digest.no seriously they really should

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I played rugby for 20 yrs, have had a reds membership for 10 years, and have coached junior rugby for 5 years. This year I've been to less than half the home games despite my membership. This is my first post for the year.
You know your game has a problem when you get infinitely more enjoyment from watching the local juniors than you do from watching your state side.
The laws and their interpretations have become so complex. The sanitisation of the game has all but ruled out what was once regarded as fair competition for the ball, and so many games are being decided by random cards and penalties.
I can proudly say I have watched more junior games this year than I have super games, and it's the only thing keeping up my interest in the game.
The current interpretations and resultant penalty and card lottery has been the nail in the coffin this year.
I will always support grass roots rugby. My Sat and Sun mornings this weekend were both spent watching or coaching the boys at the local rugby club and we had a ball.
Last night - not so much.
The current game at a professional level no longer warrants more than a cursory channel flick if I've nothing better to do.
And if the game is losing diehard supporters like me then it's in real trouble.

 

[chibimatty]

The current game at a professional level no longer warrants more than a cursory channel flick if I've nothing better to do.
And if the game is losing diehard supporters like me then it's in real trouble.

Tragic, are you finding the current on-field product boring? This is a question I've been pondering for a while. Living in Perth, I used to borrow video tapes and mark it on my calendar as to when a rugby broadcast was on. Now, I don't bother, despite all the pay-TV and internet at my disposal, unless I have a team to support in the match. I used to watch every game of the Five Nations, NPC, Currie Cup, I could get my hands on.

I've been watching footage of old games from the 80s and 90s and the game looks like a very, very different sport altogether. Not just that they were amateur mind, but that the game I watch now, feels like sitting back and watching rugby league, waiting though long periods of attrition while waiting for a someone to break through the line.

I am missing the up-the-guts, now here's a chance, tension of the artistic chess game I used to love.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is just nostalgia or is this a common affliction around rugby fans now? Bear in mind, the low crowds showing up across all three original Tri-Nations for their Super Rugby games.

 

[tragic]

Tragic, are you finding the current on-field product boring? This is a question I've been pondering for a while. Living in Perth, I used to borrow video tapes and mark it on my calendar as to when a rugby broadcast was on. Now, I don't bother, despite all the pay-TV and internet at my disposal, unless I have a team to support in the match. I used to watch every game of the Five Nations, NPC, Currie Cup, I could get my hands on.

I've been watching footage of old games from the 80s and 90s and the game looks like a very, very different sport altogether. Not just that they were amateur mind, but that the game I watch now, feels like sitting back and watching rugby league, waiting though long periods of attrition while waiting for a someone to break through the line.

I am missing the up-the-guts, now here's a chance, tension of the artistic chess game I used to love.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is just nostalgia or is this a common affliction around rugby fans now? Bear in mind, the low crowds showing up across all three original Tri-Nations for their Super Rugby games.

I think it's a combination of boredom and frustration chibimatty
I do find the game more boring to watch - there is so much less space and the defence is so much more organised. A combination of superior athletes in the professional era and the modern trend of not committing more than one or two forwards to the defensive ruck. This results in a wall of defenders with no gaps. Hence the emphasis on size over guile and footwork.
To break down defences teams work on the edge of the laws - subtle jersey holds in rucks, shoulder checks, obstructing support players and decoys . Not that this didn't happen before, but it has become a much more essential facet of the game to break down the defensive wall of players.
The second element for me is the endless stream of penalties and cards. Common sense is no longer an option for referees who are instructed on interpretations and second guessed by referee reviews and judiciaries. Competing for the high ball is a perfect example. Fair enough to card a player who deliberately takes out an opponent in the air. But when it is a fair contest, is it really sensible to penalise the player who's hips are lowest in the collision (as is the current interpretation)? 3 points and a card is a game changer. So being unable to jump as high as your opponent is a penalisable and potentially cardable offence and deemed serious enough to cost the game.
Cards used to be, and in my opinion still should be, for actions which are dangerous or influence the outcome of the game (eg prevent point scoring by the opposition) Now they are commonplace and used as a deterrent for poor technique, even if it wasn't the slightest bit dangerous (because it could have been)
The game, laws and their interpretations have become so complex that I struggle to explain some of the decisions to the young fellas, and I've been involved all my life. The newbie tuning in for the first time hasn't got a hope. Compare that to league, AFL and soccer and ask yourself why their codes are growing exponentially whilst we languish. Refereeing has become a near impossible task and as a result we have seen several games this year where teams (and their supporters) can justifiably feel hardly done by. Its not the referees fault - it's the evolution of our game.
I know many will disagree, and fair enough.
But it's why I no longer watch a lot of rugby.

 

[wamberal]

You said it a lot better than i did, tragic.


Anybody who does not realise that the game itself is a big part of the problem in our market is just not seeing things as others see them. The others, being the ones who did not grow up with the game, the ones that we need to attract to our code, or we die.

 

[Braveheart81]

So much of it is perception more than reality though in my opinion.

There is the perception that penalty kicks and scrum resets eat into the clock too much (and to some degree that they do). The simplest why to fix that would be to stop the clock when those things happen.

Ball in play time has increased significantly over the years.

Scrums will never be able to sped up much as the forces involved are so great now that you have to give time for teams to get properly set. If we had the quick gather and bind practice today that we had in the 80s I think there would be a lot of serious injuries.

 

[I like to watch]

So much of it is perception more than reality though in my opinion.

There is the perception that penalty kicks and scrum resets eat into the clock too much (and to some degree that they do). The simplest why to fix that would be to stop the clock when those things happen.

Ball in play time has increased significantly over the years.

Scrums will never be able to sped up much as the forces involved are so great now that you have to give time for teams to get properly set. If we had the quick gather and bind practice today that we had in the 80s I think there would be a lot of serious injuries.

Good points, but unfortunately, perception is reality.
No idea how you can change perceptions

 

[Strewthcobber]

So much of it is perception more than reality though in my opinion.

There is the perception that penalty kicks and scrum resets eat into the clock too much (and to some degree that they do). The simplest why to fix that would be to stop the clock when those things happen.

Ball in play time has increased significantly over the years.

Scrums will never be able to sped up much as the forces involved are so great now that you have to give time for teams to get properly set. If we had the quick gather and bind practice today that we had in the 80s I think there would be a lot of serious injuries.

It's not the game time getting eaten up that's the problem.

It's sitting in row z in the middle of winter having paid $45 trying to stay awake while on the other side of the field 3 scrum resets happen, of which you can see nothing, then a penalty which nobody can understand and then a penalty kick which inspires no-one and then back for a deep kickoff which gets booted out for a lineout which everyone ambles to only for a prop to take a knee and get injury treatment.

There's no ball movement for ten minutes at the time.

Now that's obviously an exaggeration to some extent. But not much.......

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[Braveheart81]

Good points, but unfortunately, perception is reality.
No idea how you can change perceptions

As I said, you stop the clock.

Those events are always going to happen because they are part of the game. If you make it clear they aren't eating into the game time then I think you go a long way to winning that battle.

It's not the game time getting eaten up that's the problem.

It's sitting in row z in the middle of winter having paid $45 trying to stay awake while on the other side of the field 3 scrum resets happen, of which you can see nothing, then a penalty which nobody can understand and then a penalty kick which inspires no-one and then back for a deep kickoff which gets booted out for a lineout which everyone ambles to only for a prop to take a knee and get injury treatment.

There's no ball movement for ten minutes at the time.

Now that's obviously an exaggeration to some extent. But not much...

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I would think that reducing the amount of time that is lost to that occurrence helps the situation substantially.

I think the times people get most frustrated with this sort of thing is when their team is losing and they're seeing minutes eaten up with nothing happening.

If that's your experience in the latter stages of the game, it's probably going to have the greatest impact on your overall impression of the game and result in a negative opinion of it, regardless of what happened in the first 70 minutes.

 

[Dan54]

You know your game has a problem when you get infinitely more enjoyment from watching the local juniors than you do from watching your state side.
The laws and their interpretations

Tragic I have followed the game for most of my 60 odd years of life and coached junior rugby, as well as senior, and have almost always enjoyed watching junior, or senior rugby as much if not more than super rugby (which I enjoy). I not in anyway taking away from your thoughts but would add a couple of reasons, one being I assume you have kids involved in junior rugby, which always makes it more enjoyable (which is great), I know I certainly enjoyed being at kids rugby when son played and/or when ever I coached teams(and also found it harder to have time to go to super/rep games), I also enjoy going to club games and do every week during season, and I believe it is easier to connect with a game if you on the sideline rather than up in the stands(and know the players personally). I not a member of Reds (was a few years back), and have only been to 4 games at Ballymore this year, and the thing that will put me off more than anything is not the rules( though some frustrate me as the Kerevi penalty on saturday whist competing for the ball), but the lack of skills etc of players I expect to have more. Mind you I do tend to be against dumbing down rugby to attract support anyway, as I think most will find in general rugby is getting bigger worldwide, and wonder if making laws simpler will attract a few more supporters but lose a lot of long time ones.

 

[papabear]

Rugby is growing world wide against limited competition for other contact heavy sports.

the first and obvious step for rugby is to address the rule book and the officiating, you cant have teams making a game plan around winning penalties, penalties should be through the fault of the other side doing something they know to be delibrately wrong but forced to do so, in rugby, you have sides holding onto possession doing nothing with it for possessions sake waiting for a ruck / maul / scrum penalty.

Look at the tahs / reds. Reds score 4 tries to 2 and still lose, this should be a very very very very rare occurance but in rugby it happens all the time.

 

[I like to watch]

The general perception is that there is substantially more kicking in Rugby than in League, how does this fallacy get addressed.
I believe casual observers object to scrums being reset repeatedly because it's boring,they are not bothered whether the clock has stopped or not.

 

[Dave Beat]

So much of it is perception more than reality though in my opinion.

There is the perception that penalty kicks and scrum resets eat into the clock too much (and to some degree that they do). The simplest why to fix that would be to stop the clock when those things happen.

Ball in play time has increased significantly over the years.

Scrums will never be able to sped up much as the forces involved are so great now that you have to give time for teams to get properly set. If we had the quick gather and bind practice today that we had in the 80s I think there would be a lot of serious injuries.

Ball in Play.
Having seen Soup & Shute live this year it IMO the ball is in play for far longer periods in Shute.
The Soup games I've seen - shite I'd hate to see how many kms the water boys run during the game. Stop here, stop there. It did not flow at all.

Again it might only be perception but i got board.

 

[tragic]

Tragic I have followed the game for most of my 60 odd years of life and coached junior rugby, as well as senior, and have almost always enjoyed watching junior, or senior rugby as much if not more than super rugby (which I enjoy). I not in anyway taking away from your thoughts but would add a couple of reasons, one being I assume you have kids involved in junior rugby, which always makes it more enjoyable (which is great), I know I certainly enjoyed being at kids rugby when son played and/or when ever I coached teams(and also found it harder to have time to go to super/rep games), I also enjoy going to club games and do every week during season, and I believe it is easier to connect with a game if you on the sideline rather than up in the stands(and know the players personally). I not a member of Reds (was a few years back), and have only been to 4 games at Ballymore this year, and the thing that will put me off more than anything is not the rules( though some frustrate me as the Kerevi penalty on saturday whist competing for the ball), but the lack of skills etc of players I expect to have more. Mind you I do tend to be against dumbing down rugby to attract support anyway, as I think most will find in general rugby is getting bigger worldwide, and wonder if making laws simpler will attract a few more supporters but lose a lot of long time ones.

You're right Dan, I do have kids playing junior rugby and know a lot of the others on the field.
But it's more than just that - we do often hang around and watch some of the other games as well.
There's less penalties (mainly due to leniency), the kids can't kick as far (so they have less impact on the game), the defences are less organised, and the kid with the great step and fancy footwork gets the same reward as the monster who crashes up the middle. It just seems to mitigate the things that frustrate me about the professional game. Rarely is a game decided by penalties alone, and rarely does a team dominate the stats but not the scoreboard.
Maybe I'll come full circle as my kids grow up - time will tell I guess.

 

[Braveheart81]

Ball in Play.
Having seen Soup & Shute live this year it IMO the ball is in play for far longer periods in Shute.
The Soup games I've seen - shite I'd hate to see how many kms the water boys run during the game. Stop here, stop there. It did not flow at all.

Again it might only be perception but i got board.

The clock stops for injuries though. So whilst there are lots more injury breaks, they don't reduce ball in play.

I have no idea what the ball in play time in Shute Shield is like (because I haven't seen any compiled stats). It could certainly be higher.

I believe casual observers object to scrums being reset repeatedly because it's boring,they are not bothered whether the clock has stopped or not.

I don't disagree, but don't see how you change that without reducing the contest in the scrum. You have to allow time for them to pack safely and I don't see how you can reduce penalties/resets etc. without providing more opportunity to game the system.

 

[tragic]

As I said, you stop the clock.

Those events are always going to happen because they are part of the game. If you make it clear they aren't eating into the game time then I think you go a long way to winning that battle.




I would think that reducing the amount of time that is lost to that occurrence helps the situation substantially.

I think the times people get most frustrated with this sort of thing is when their team is losing and they're seeing minutes eaten up with nothing happening.

If that's your experience in the latter stages of the game, it's probably going to have the greatest impact on your overall impression of the game and result in a negative opinion of it, regardless of what happened in the first 70 minutes.

I'm used to losing. It comes with the territory
It's not time in play. A longer game with the same number of penalties and stoppages would not solve the issue in my eyes.
It's actually the lack of interest created the scenarios exactly like strewthcobber summarised.
And the subsequent lottery that comes with the inevitable scrum penalty after multiple resets.

 

[wamberal]

The trend in sports entertainment is for simpler, shorter, events. There's nothing we can do to make our game simpler, or shorter. So we are up against it.


The Australian market shows this reality in spades. It doesn't matter whether rugby is thriving in every other single country in the world. What matters to us is what happens here.


This is the inconvenient truth that all rugby people should be accepting, if we know what the truth is about the game as it is perceived here, we might finally be prepared to work together to save the game we all presumably love.


Fight as a group, or we will fall one by one by one. Inexorably. Maybe we cannot change the rules, but we can change the way we work together to develop the players and the products that are commercially essential to survival. Obviously the national sides, men and women, fifteens and sevens and maybe tens, provincial sides, and a national club championship (built on existing traditional rivalries).


Some of us might have to make sacrifices. If that is the price that must be paid to save the game, and we really want the game to be saved, then we will accept some pain.


If we are not willing to make sacrifices for the good of the game overall, we deserve to lose it.

 

[Braveheart81]

The trend in sports entertainment is for simpler, shorter, events.


The Australian market shows this in spades. It doesn't matter whether rugby is thriving in every other single country in the world. What matters to us is what happens here.


This is the inconvenient truth that all rugby people should be accepting, if we know what the truth is about the game as it is perceived here, we might finally be prepared to work together to save the game we all presumably love.


Fight as a group, or we will fall one by one by one. Inexorably.

In cricket sure, but nothing else has ramped up interest by shortening things.

The Fast 4 tennis concept has been a basket case. Rugby 7s will be a growth area but I doubt will ever really capture the interest as a week in, week out following.

AFL is substantially longer than the other football codes and is easily the most popular here.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Yep.
It's not time in play, it's minimising the gaps between the time in play that is the trend. With so many other distractions out there, you've got to keep the interest.

Our challange is that you can't really have a game without 15 guys on their feet. For one guy to have a break, the game comes to a stop

In league you get a breather when you have the ball and interchange. AFL has interchange and the ability to have a break up forward or similaretc

 

[wamberal]

In cricket sure, but nothing else has ramped up interest by shortening things.



AFL is substantially longer than the other football codes and is easily the most popular here.

AFL is simple to understand. Perhaps I should have said simple and/or shorter.

 

[Braveheart81]

AFL is simple to understand. Perhaps I should have said simple and/or shorter.

Sure, but rugby union is never going to become that simple. It's too structured a game to be able to throw out half the law book.

That said, unless you follow AFL, you probably aren't aware of lots of technical rules they have, particularly around stoppages.

Any changes to rugby need to be minor whilst working with the existing framework of the game and what makes it rugby union.