England v Australia

[Tomikin]

I'd like to see this on the bench.. So Benn, Ben, Bongo, Skelton (Horwill injured? ), Jones, White, Cooper, Godwin/Hodgson..

 

[Bronzewhaler]

Maybe he means that Skelton will manage a total of 80 minutes on the field during the whole tournament?

If we manage to play 5 games, that would mean an average of 16 minutes a game -- that's better than he is doing now.

 

[Scotty]

This is the challenge for some with him, he is the facilitator type 10, enough threat ball in hand to plant the inside defenders and unselfish enough to move the ball on and then support. He is more Dan Carter than Carlos Spencer

He works hard off the ball. In that wonderful team try to Phipps he touched the ball 3 times moving the ball on to someone in a better position.

I wish he was even 75% of Dan Carter, but the reality is that Dan Carter has close to the passing skills of Cooper, runs better than Foley and is better with the boot than both. Not to mention the best decision maker.

 

[Bronzewhaler]

Anyone who wants to be in the test squad must be able to put in a full on 80 minutes - no exceptions!
This is not the place to be learning on the job. That's club and NRC.

 

[fatprop]

I wish he was even 75% of Dan Carter, but the reality is that Dan Carter has close to the passing skills of Cooper, runs better than Foley and is better with the boot than both. Not to mention the best decision maker.

So do I (although he ain't 25% the player of Carter - that is a bit harsh), I wasn't trying to do a comparison, it was more about putting players skills on a continuum of attributes/styles

 

[fatprop]

Anyone who wants to be in the test squad must be able to put in a full on 80 minutes - no exceptions!
This is not the place to be learning on the job. That's club and NRC.

That isn't how test rugby works, you budget time for players, especially forwards, planning for certain players to contribute minutes

 

[Scrubber2050]

That isn't how test rugby works, you budget time for players, especially forwards, planning for certain players to contribute minutes

but gee its a big advantage if your starters are playing well and able to go the full 80.

Then the Coach really has good options as to replace or not

 

[Braveheart81]

Anyone who wants to be in the test squad must be able to put in a full on 80 minutes - no exceptions!
This is not the place to be learning on the job. That's club and NRC.

We're lacking impact in the forwards, particularly late in the game. Lock is probably the weakest area of the lot in this regard because our starting players whilst relatively hard workers, aren't renowned for their physical impact, particularly at test level.

Skelton clearly needs to improve his stamina so he can provide impact for longer periods of time. Simmons, Carter and Horwill need to improve their impact so the physicality of our forward pack can be consistently higher.

If we had locks of the calibre of Retallick, Whitelock, Etzebeth etc. we wouldn't be having this discussion. We don't so compromises have to be made.

 

[fatprop]

but gee its a big advantage if your starters are playing well and able to go the full 80.

Then the Coach really has good options as to replace or not

.
guys like Kepu simply can't, no THP can.

the other spots? if they know they have 50 minutes planned, they can invest more effort into those minutes

 

[Viking]

Despite all this, he managed to steer his team to win the super rugby title. Imagine if we'd had a decent 10.

Actually Beale did most of the playmaking. Which is why he was chosen at 10 before Foley against the ABs.

 

[daz]

Anyone who wants to be in the test squad must be able to put in a full on 80 minutes - no exceptions!
This is not the place to be learning on the job. That's club and NRC.

I make the same comment about this every year, and every year I get shouted down. Yet I believe this with all my heart:

If an EOYT, with nothing on the line but the pride of winning a Test match, is not the place to learn how to play international rugby, then what is?

EOYT is used by every nation to get combos and squads settled for 6N/RC/RWC, etc, etc. Saying otherwise does not make it less true.

We all say Test rugby is a step up from S15 rugby, yet we still act surprised and call for heads to roll when a young fella gets a shot and doesn't quite nail it in in his first Test or two.

Just maybe, that young fella will learn from those first couple of EOYT Tests and pull it out of the bag when we really care, like a Bledisloe or RWC final series.

 

[Viking]

Foley is a classic running flyhalf. He's very fast and can make breaks. He's comfortable playing flat, which provides opportunities in a dual playmaker configuration. His short passing game is good. His long passing game needs to be developed. Despite what peolpe say on here, his defence is very good. To argue that a young Wallaby flyhalf lacks potential is a failure of imagination.

I haven't seen many breaks from him at Test level. And playing flat is nothing new, both To'omua and Cooper have shown this same quality in the past.

His running game has been mediocre this year, he was much better when he played fullback. His short game is not as good as you say, he makes numerous forward passes trying it. And to say his defence is good is just wrong, watch the video about the wallabies defence against Wales, it highlights defensive mis-reads against Foley - a player who i should remind you should be very comfortable with the "new" wallabies system who has had 2 years under it with the Tahs. To be fair when he does read the defence correctly he at least puts his body on the line - i like this, but his technique is often poor. His miss tackle stats are not good. So please don't go on to say his defence is good.

Foley to me, is a player who just "goes with the flow" he plays well when the team is going well but when we go poor he drops too. He is not a leader. He doesn't ignite or trigger any change - which is what I want my chief play maker to do.

Players like Cooper have the ability to have MOTM performances even in a losing side. Foley will never do this. I want a leader at 10 not a follower.

So I am not complete negative about him. I do like Foley's improvement the last couple of years, he is slowly becoming a solid player. His goal kicking is a massive improvement. But I want to see less amateur errors, better defence, and more leadership skills from him before I would consider him a long-term option.

 

[tragic]

Cooper's case for starting is more along the lines of suggesting Foley should be dropped rather than Cooper promoted.

Nah, its just about having your best player in each position on the field for the longest period of time.

 

[Braveheart81]

Nah, its just about having your best player in each position on the field for the longest period of time.

Where is the recent evidence for that?

When he started for the Wallabies at the start of the tour, he wasn't particularly good and looked like a player who had spent a lot of time out injured.

I wouldn't have minded seeing him start against England, but in my opinion that would have come from Cheika deciding that Foley wasn't up to it rather than Cooper demanding selection.

 

[Moono75]

I make the same comment about this every year, and every year I get shouted down. Yet I believe this with all my heart:

If an EOYT, with nothing on the line but the pride of winning a Test match, is not the place to learn how to play international rugby, then what is?

EOYT is used by every nation to get combos and squads settled for 6N/RC/RWC, etc, etc. Saying otherwise does not make it less true.

We all say Test rugby is a step up from S15 rugby, yet we still act surprised and call for heads to roll when a young fella gets a shot and doesn't quite nail it in in his first Test or two.

Just maybe, that young fella will learn from those first couple of EOYT Tests and pull it out of the bag when we really care, like a Bledisloe or RWC final series.

I have said the same and agree 100% regarding the EOTY and what it should be about. Hence why I am so p#ssed off that Kylie Godwin has yet to get a run.

 

[fatprop]

I have said the same and agree 100% regarding the EOTY and what it should be about. Hence why I am so p#ssed off that Kylie Godwin has yet to get a run.

There is usually a game against Scotland or Italy

 

[daz]

I wouldn't have minded seeing him start against England, but in my opinion that would have come from Cheika deciding that Foley wasn't up to it rather than Cooper demanding selection.

It seems we are having trouble reaching agreement, so given the Test is only a day and a bit away, to settle this I have rung Cheiks and told him I'm available to play 10.

 

[I like to watch]

Where is the recent evidence for that?

When he started for the Wallabies at the start of the tour, he wasn't particularly good and looked like a player who had spent a lot of time out injured.

I wouldn't have minded seeing him start against England, but in my opinion that would have come from Cheika deciding that Foley wasn't up to it rather than Cooper demanding selection.

It's obvious that Foley is up to it.
It's not yet obvious he is undoubtedly the best option.
So on that basis,I would have liked a different selection in at least one of the tests.
Apart from 10,I reckon only spot in the backline under contention is on the wing.

 

[tragic]

Where is the recent evidence for that?

When he started for the Wallabies at the start of the tour, he wasn't particularly good and looked like a player who had spent a lot of time out injured.

I wouldn't have minded seeing him start against England, but in my opinion that would have come from Cheika deciding that Foley wasn't up to it rather than Cooper demanding selection.

He was a better 10 pre injury than Foley is now, and has shown enough of late in the final 20 to suggest he may be not far off that form.
I'm not being at all critical of Foley, but we know exactly what he has to offer. In my opinion Cooper offers more and we had the perfect opportunity to confirm or refute that in the last two matches.

 

[daz]

I have said the same and agree 100% regarding the EOTY and what it should be about. Hence why I am so p#ssed off that Kylie Godwin has yet to get a run.

Yep. The merits of whether a player deserves to be there or not is irrelevant and is what forums like this is all about. However, if you take a player on tour, he should get a run at some stage

I understand why Godwin may not be in the frame for a Test match right now, but traditionally we used to play mid-week games that gave the coaches a chance to evaluate the players in real game time. We should bring that back.