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England v NZ & Aust 2015

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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I was thinking of Watson's complete and utter selfishness constantly referring his LBW dismissals and where I could find a record of them when news.com.au kindly came to the rescue: "Of his 29 LBW dismissals, he has tried unsuccessfully to have 14 overturned. Fittingly the dismissal that might well prove to be his last in Test cricket, was one of them."

14 TIMES THIS USELESS PRICK'S POINTLESSLY CHEWED UP BATTING REFERRALS! :mad: How unforgiveably and selfishly indulgent.

It was actually almost comical that he referred his second innings dismissal. The ball, the shot and where he was hit were as close to identical as his first innings dismissal as you could get.

We were told prior to this test that the performances of Watson and M Marsh in the lead-up games would decide the spot. Marsh scored 150 v Essex and 30 & 101 v Kent while Watson scored 50 v Essex and 21 & 81 v Kent. Marsh took a wicket in each innings against Kent and Watson didn't bowl in either innings.

And after all of that and all the words from Lehman, they pick Watson anyway in a team crying out for generational change.
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Voges would have been an ok selection in a young side where we needed to fill a hole short term and his experience could have been useful, but no way in a team where most of the players are already in their mid to late 30s..
Surely you play the best team in the country playing England in England. Vogues is one of the best 6 batsmen in Australia at the moment.

Windies series etc layer in the year can be used to develop players
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Surely you play the best team in the country playing England in England. Vogues is one of the best 6 batsmen in Australia at the moment.

Windies series etc layer in the year can be used to develop players

There's a difference between developing players and developing the team.

I'd question whether picking the best 6 batsmen has ever been the only criteria used to pick Australian cricket teams.

All teams in all sports require a balance between youth and experience, a balance in playing styles and even a balance in personalities. At the moment thte Australian cricket team is not a well-balanced unit.

England are 5 years per player younger and they played that way.

The argument about blooding players against the Windies next year put forward by some poster is also absurd. Didn't we just play 2 tests against the West Indies? If ever there was a perfect place to bring youner players in surely that was it? Just out from an Ashes series and away from home and all the media attention which that brings.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
And after all of that and all the words from Lehman, they pick Watson anyway in a team crying out for generational change.


And at least, let's do it one player at a time. I don't want to light the house on fire just to stay warm, after all.

We need more Mitch.
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
So we've been unbeatable for the best part of 12-18 months now, including becoming world champions and a win streak of the last 8 international matches, yet we lose one test and suddenly all the armchair critics are coming out of the woodwork.

Unbelievable. We knew we had an old squad, it was raised numerous times prior to the tour and no one seemed to have a problem with it then. Yet, we drop one test, two days after one of our best bowlers retires and suddenly we can't compete with England any more and the wrong blokes are on tour. The same England that we beat 5-0 and rolled over at the world cup.

I think we were somewhat ambushed by the Cardiff pitch. They bowled well in patches but by in large we threw our wickets away with terrible shot selection. The axe needs to be wielded at the selection table but by no means do we have younger blokes putting their hands up for selection. If anyone believes Voges shouldn't be there they are seriously kidding themselves.

Regarding first drop, I reckon it's a weakness of ours that hasn't quite been figured out. I'm convinced Smith is our best batsman and he will mature into the role but right now his technique is fragile to swing bowling and he will be found out in English conditions. Read an article that compared him to Jon Trott which I thought was quite interesting, he definitely has the same shuffle prior to delivery. I'd expect that average of his to decline slightly throughout this series but TBH we have no better option there.

For the next test, I'd drop Haddin and Watson, bring in Neville and M.Marsh. If Starc needs to be rested then Siddle is the man.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
So we've been unbeatable for the best part of 12-18 months now, including becoming world champions and a win streak of the last 8 international matches, yet we lose one test and suddenly all the armchair critics are coming out of the woodwork.

Unbelievable. We knew we had an old squad, it was raised numerous times prior to the tour and no one seemed to have a problem with it then. Yet, we drop one test, two days after one of our best bowlers retires and suddenly we can't compete with England any more and the wrong blokes are on tour. The same England that we beat 5-0 and rolled over at the world cup.

I think we were somewhat ambushed by the Cardiff pitch. They bowled well in patches but by in large we threw our wickets away with terrible shot selection. The axe needs to be wielded at the selection table but by no means do we have younger blokes putting their hands up for selection. If anyone believes Voges shouldn't be there they are seriously kidding themselves.

Regarding first drop, I reckon it's a weakness of ours that hasn't quite been figured out. I'm convinced Smith is our best batsman and he will mature into the role but right now his technique is fragile to swing bowling and he will be found out in English conditions. Read an article that compared him to Jon Trott which I thought was quite interesting, he definitely has the same shuffle prior to delivery. I'd expect that average of his to decline slightly throughout this series but TBH we have no better option there.

For the next test, I'd drop Haddin and Watson, bring in Neville and M.Marsh. If Starc needs to be rested then Siddle is the man.

Plenty of us had a problem with the age of the squad and the lack of any real move towards gradual generational change, it's just that victories masked many of the problems.

This is not the same England team we beat last series, they've retained some and they've brought in some new guys and the balance of their team is right. That's what it's all about - balance. Baristow - gone, Finn - gone, Prior -gone, Bresnan - gone, Panesar - gone, Tremlett - gone and Swann - gone. If we were playing an England team with those guys playing, our curent team would be unbeatable.

How on earth can we say that we were ambushed by the pitch? This is what we are going to get; slow seaming wickets - it's been written about so often could it be that team management were unaware of it?

I believe that Voges shouldn't be there, because his time has passed. There's been plenty of time in the last decade where the top scoring run maker in Sheffield Shield hasn't been in the Australian team - but all of a sudden he has to be there because of domestic form?:confused: If indeed the only middle order batting option for the selectors to pick was a 35 year old, it shows a lack of develop of young players in this country. Not so long ago, we used to laugh at the Poms for picking old blokes who had scored in county cricket, who's laughing now?
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
And at least, let's do it one player at a time. I don't want to light the house on fire just to stay warm, after all.

We need more Mitch.

Marsh has to replace Watson - if that doesn't happen then the coach and selectors positions need to be questioned. I assume that Siddle will come in for the injured Starc. I don't expect any other changes.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
The obvious answer is that none of Warner, Rogers, Smith, Clarke, Vogues or The Other can bowl enough overs of sufficient quality. For the 138 years we have had enough bowling in the top 6 to get away with it.

And actually,http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...by=runs;team=2;template=results;type=allround looking at the stats, if you bat at 6 for Australia, you have had to bowl plenty over the years



I'm actually not that convinced by those figures. How many of those guys are in the all rounder class? Only ten of the first fifty in the list have taken more than 50 test wickets and I reckon three of them (Benaud, Noble and Armstrong) are what you'd call all rounders. It's handy no doubt to have one or two blokes in the top six who can send down a few overs as a change bowler, I won't dispute that. What I'm arguing against is the notion that we have to have someone batting at six in "the all rounder spot" when we've only ever had a handful of players in our history who fit into that category. We just don't produce them.

In our current line up, we've got a real problem with getting enough runs at six and seven. I would think our primary focus ought to be to fix that, because if we don't we're asking our bowlers to shoulder far too much of the burden. An extra 50-80 runs from them combined would have kept us in the game, especially with us rolling England for 280-odd in their second dig. Watson has promised to be that player for the longest time but really he hasn't got anywhere near it. I don't think we can afford to carry him and Haddin as a package any longer. That said, we would have helped ourselves by bowler a fuller length on day one.

Bottom line: all three areas need improvement and fast.

EDIT: I'd be OK with Mitch Marsh batting at Lord in the next test on the strength of his tour runs. There isn't anyone else (other than his brother, who I don't trust at test level).
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Is Marsh any better a replacement? He has a Shield average of 37.



Mitch or Sean? In Mitch's case it's his recent returns with the wand that make me lean in his direction. The totality of his first class career doesn't. In Sean's case, I think he's had enough chances already and I wouldn't have picked him to tour at all.
 

Pedrolicus

Dick Tooth (41)
I've never be overly impressed by Siddle. If Starc's out I would much rather Cummins was in the team. I can't see siddle making much of an impact although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Is Marsh any better a replacement? He has a Shield average of 37.

But you can't just rely on Shield averages any more. In the old days when all the test players played Shield before the tests, between tests and after the tests it was a much more reliable indicator. M Marsh played one shield game in 2014/15 - but his last two first class innings against Kent and Essex yielded 2 centuries (In English conditions).
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Mitch or Sean? In Mitch's case it's his recent returns with the wand that make me lean in his direction. The totality of his first class career doesn't. In Sean's case, I think he's had enough chances already and I wouldn't have picked him to tour at all.

The problem with the squad picked is that it doesn't really leave many options at all.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Watson has promised to be that player for the longest time but really he hasn't got anywhere near it. I don't think we can afford to carry him and Haddin as a package any longer. .

It's a big problem for us moving forward - if Haddin and Watson aren't in the starting 11 then they shouldn't be in the squad.

Watson's omission should have been a no-brainer for the selectors, but they've been finding reasons to pick him for a decade (for some of that time he deserved his place, other times not). Haddin's time has probably passed and they've held on to him for one tour too many. (Those with long memories will remember that he was left out of the team a few years ago because he was too old).
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
But you can't just rely on Shield averages any more. In the old days when all the test players played Shield before the tests, between tests and after the tests it was a much more reliable indicator. M Marsh played one shield game in 2014/15 - but his last two first class innings against Kent and Essex yielded 2 centuries (In English conditions).

Against (ordinary) Division 2 opposition.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Which Australian batsmen didn't score less runs than Marsh?

But they are the two in competition for a place and it was asserted that Marsh had only scored his runs against ordinary opposition, so Watson's score in the same matches against the same opposition seems to be significant in the context of the conversation.
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
Where did I mention Shane Watson in any of that? I'm of the view that he should be replaced, but I'm not convinced that either Marsh is necessaroly the answer.
 
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