1. Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Federal Election 2013

Discussion in 'Politics' started by boyo, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
    I find it hard to be critical of the Libs when you look at the number 1 ticket holder on the Labor ballet. The bloke seems like a absolute fucking animal and shame on Labor for associating with the prick.

    The Greens vote is interesting and it seems the Libs have underestimated the public mood on the carbon tax.
  2. ChargerWA Mark Loane (55)

    Likes Received:
    Labor had no choice in Bullock going to the top of the party ticket. That's the machinations of the union pre-selection machine.

    But then again the Liberal machine once selected Sophie Mirabella, so it's not like their system is any better.
  3. Gnostic Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
    I wonder if the major parties realise that they only hold onto their position because of the corrupt incestuous system they have formulated over years of tinkering and if given a real choice a vast number of people wouldn't vote at all for either Liberal or Labour.

    The current system is un-representative
  4. boyo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
    Whilst TA may try to play down "the 5 per cent hit to the Liberal vote, arguing it was typical of a byelection", it was a statewide election for the upper house, not a byelection for a lower house seat.

    This shows disaffection for him, for his government, for their policies, etc.

    To try to arrogantly brush it off is a mark of the man.

    WA Senate result puts Clive Palmer in box seat

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/wa-senate-result-puts-clive-palmer-in-box-seat-20140406-zqrib.html#ixzz2yA74DabR
    Ruggo likes this.
  5. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

    Likes Received:
    If it's bad for him (TA) then Bill Shorten better work on his CV as 21% is almost beatable by the Greens and the PUP.
  6. Braveheart81 Rocky Elsom (76)

    Likes Received:
    What's clear from the WA Senate election is that the Greens and PUP are benefiting from disillusion with both major parties.

    The ALP is lurching too close to the Coalition on the environment and asylum seekers and are paying for it.

    Unless they fall on their sword and admit their previous asylum seeker policy was wrong and advocate for a more humane solution and stay firm on environmental matters, they will keep losing support.
    Ruggo and Slim 293 like this.
  7. Bowside Peter Johnson (47)

    Likes Received:

    The current system is fine. People are disillusioned with the current major parties and as such more minors/independents are getting elected. That is democracy at play.

    Only change I would make is to force micro parties to get a certain amount of signature before they can make it onto the ballot.
  8. boyo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:

    Both of the major parties need to lift their game to make themselves attractive to voters.
  9. Gnostic Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:

    The research on the matter tell a different story. I have listened to a number of speakers on the matter over the last two federal election cycles, including Alexander Downer, Graham Richardson and especially Ted Mack (only person to be elected as an independent at all three levels of government). All three are on the record about the "crisis" in Australian Democracy.

    I know a lot of middle class people who do not vote, a significant number given the small size town I live in, simply because they have a deep distrust of the major parties and any vote essentially ends up in their hands. Discussions brought out the usual reasons of (1) they are all corrupt, (2) despondency why bother it makes no difference to the outcomes (3) I will not vote simply because I will not endorse them in any way.

    None of them were the old laziness would rather sleep in excuse. They turn up and get their names marked off. These are not disgruntled uneducated people, these are the core of the democracy, worker and business owners. If you don't think that spells trouble for the system and a need to reform it then be prepared over the next century when people just begin to ignore the governments as they are un-representative.

    I would seriously suggest reading or listening to the speech Ted Mack did for the 2013 Henry Parkes Oration in Tenterfield.

  10. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:

    Oh it is bad for Labor without doubt but I think you might find Boyo's point is that this is meant to be strong coalition country in the West and they went backwards.
  11. boyo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
  12. Gnostic Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
    The article above as posted by Boyo echos some themes that I have been ranting about for some years now.

    The point of my posts in this thread (just above) and in the Jobs (not Steve) thread, and the Criminal Justice thread should be apparent to those who have taken in interest in the Political Forum of GAGR.

    I am seriously concerned about the future of Australian Democracy. There is a very high level of discontent and even contempt for all levels and arms of the Government.

    Let us add in as I said in the Jobs thread, a declining labour market and a loss of the aspirational middle class, which most democratic theorists have always labelled as the structural core of the system.

    There is no doubt that there is a significant decline in engaged (actual physical) participation and in effective participation (voting) in our democracy. I have been arguing that the reasons are varied and not just because the current crop of reps are inane, shallow populists who couldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it.

    Like I have said on multiple thread we need deep structural reform to the whole system to reinvigorate the whole society and re-engage the electorate and make the system again representative of the electorate. Without it, the path is pretty clear for those who want to see it, a declining standard of living, an increasing class of disaffected alienated people with no hope and no prospects of betterment.

    For anybody really interested in this topic I urge you to have a listen to the Podcast I posted above, even if you disagree vehemently with me it is food for thought.
  13. wamberal Simon Poidevin (60)

    Likes Received:
    Gnostic, a wise man once said something along the lines of, if you have problems with democracy, try living in a dictatorship for a while.

    I find some of the sentiments that you have described very depressing. I fail to see how opting out is an answer to anything. If the citizens that you refer to feel so strongly, and yet behave in such an apathetic way, they are asking for things to get worse, not better.

    They should all be joining a party of their choice, and working together to bring about real, lasting change.

    Finally, I have been around for a long long time, and I have lived in places where there are genuine problems with the system of democratic government (Thailand) or no democratic government at all (Hong Kong). Australia has its problems, but in my humble opinion, in all the Federal elections that I have ever witnessed as an adult, every single time the electorate got it right. I certainly did not agree with them, a few times. But the fact remains, they are us, and we are them.
    Runner, Ruggo and Bowside like this.
  14. Bowside Peter Johnson (47)

    Likes Received:

    The things you list are all economic problems. I agree we need some structural economic reform to ensure a strong middle class going forward, as well as a continuation of the economic mobility Australia is now famous for.

    But electoral reform of the Australian system is not going to fix economic problems. We already have pretty robust elections - our system is far better than the Non-Compolsory/First past the post voting of other western democracies.

    I honestly don't know why you are complaining? People are dissatisfied and as such we have 10 Greens, 3 Palmer and 4 independents. That's a sizeable chunk of the senate and the fact they are there in the first place instead of more Liberal/Labor senators shows the system works.

    Accountability is the job of the populace and the media. We get the government we deserve.
    Runner and Ruggo like this.
  15. Gnostic Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:
    @ Bowside and Wamberal et al. By your replies I know you didn't bother to listen to the Henry Parkes Oration.

    If you did you would know the basis of my "complaint".

    My arguments are we need to improve the system because significant numbers are opting out of the system as it stands, and yes my arguments are economic, as was the post by Boyo above and today's headline political news of free trade deals. It does come back to economics because of the basic tenets for Capitalism as explained in the Wealth of Nations. To a certain degree economics determines our government but I would argue that unless in crisis the Politics/leadership determines our economics.

    We have declining living standards in sections of our community and as I said widespread apathy in the Democratic systems and institutions. We are not alone, in that with many of the issues being recognised and discussed on a larger scale in Britain and the US.

    The current ICAC investigation implicating a Federal Minister and a large number of previous state ministers in the largest case of corruption since the Rum Corp, perhaps since settlement will not help.

    I forget her name but an outgoing WA MP from the Labour Party is also calling for significant reform.

    Please have a listen to Ted Mack, as I said you may not agree but he certainly provides food for thought.
    Bowside likes this.
  16. Bowside Peter Johnson (47)

    Likes Received:

    I went back and read the speech.

    The swiss system sounds interesting however I simply can't see people mobilising enough to bring that sort of cultural change in Australia. If the swiss system is the most democratic in the world, than I reckon ours is pretty close to being second best.

    I agree with his calls for more accountability and I think the formation of a Public Service Board is a great idea. I'm sure many would disagree, but I think federally funded elections are the way forward with a total ban on partisan political donations. Money has no place in politics.

    I also think there should be some small reforms made to the senate voting process, but I think the preferential system should stay in place at all costs.

    I agree there should be more requirements on the abilities of ministers - but how do you quantify this? If we go off education level a guy like Keating would never have got a look in at the treasurer's job etc. Industry experience?

    I think politicians pay is roughly on par with what they would earn for roles with similar responsibility in the private sector. What I would support is the cutting of the 'perks' i.e. travel/car/housing allowances. If this means a one time large pay increase to offset the loss of perks then so be it.

    Lastly, I like the idea of an independent speaker. Perhaps the speaker should be directly elected to serve a single extended term (4-6 years); With prominent Australians from outside the political sphere encouraged to nominate.
  17. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

    Likes Received:
    Six months in with an idiotic position by ALP on senate matters and a 21% vote I suspect Bill Shorten is the unattractive
  18. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

    Likes Received:
    By less than the usual bye election swing and with a lower turnout.
  19. boyo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:

    Runner, try again. Your blinkers are obscuring your vision.
  20. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

    Likes Received:

    Oh dear, but they were meant to come out in force against the carbon and mining taxes. End of the day, fact is they miss judged the mood of the electorate.

Share This Page