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Global Rapid Rugby

Discussion in 'Rugby Discussion' started by ForceFan, Sep 4, 2018.

  1. kiap Mark Ella (57)

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    Good to see you back, Jesus.

    You missed Hawaii.
    It's time to come clean on something that has been happening in Australian rugby for decades, but is not a convenient topic of focus:

    Representation as a model went out the window more than twenty years ago, brother.

    Players are in the market now. Call it poaching if you will, but it comes down to money these days - whether you preach for the Waratahs or Manu Samoa.

    It's the same with teams. They go where there is a potential base of fans and the cash is put up. If either disappears then, eventually, so does the team.
  2. chibimatty Jimmy Flynn (14)

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    And with a New Zealand team in it, I can see exactly the same problems from Super Rugby arising in this competition too. Split fan-bases for the expansion Australian teams in Perth and Western Sydney; and an uncompetitive, lob-sided competition lacking in credibility.

    Although, I HOPE I'M PROVEN WRONG.
    Rugbynutter39, Snowy and mst like this.
  3. Snowy Stan Wickham (3)

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    Yes wasn't thrilled to see a Kiwi side in there i was hoping for a conference that would keep everything in a 3 hour time difference and the Kiwi bandwagon thing off the table if the Kiwis in WA only had the western force to get behind it would have been better
    i guess it might have been straight out politics by getting them in the tent to get the competition over the line, but sounds like the rough outlines of the governance structure of the comp will stop them holding a lot of sway
    i hope
    Rugbynutter39 and chibimatty like this.
  4. chibimatty Jimmy Flynn (14)

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    Goddammit FINALLY, someone else understands what the hell I've been going on about for years now. And just imagine, they want a Western Sydney team to appeal to Polynesian people in the area?! How the hell are they going to do that with a Kiwi team in the competition that they can support instead? And now I hear the team is going to be ALL MITRE 10 CUP PREMIERSHIP STANDARD; good grief, Minderoo may have just shot their own competition (and the two Aussie WSR teams) in the foot.

    I mean, how are Hong Kong, Singapore, or potentially Korea, Sri Lanka or any other expansion Asian team, going to compete with what is essentially a sixth New Zealand Super Rugby team?

    I'm in disbelief.
    Snowy likes this.
  5. WorkingClassRugger Andrew Slack (58)

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    It's called recruitment.
  6. Snowy Stan Wickham (3)

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    Chibimatty yes i'm hearing you
    like i said it must have been politics to get the thing up and running although i thought it would have been better to get the asian unions to put pressure on WR - play the expand the game card although that may have taken time so Twiggy went the quickest route
    Even Fiji i was thinking were a bit to far to the right of us , i was hoping we could build something in Sri Lanka , Korea or Mainland China with marquise as required
  7. Slim 293 George Gregan (70)

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    I'm not sure how the Force flogging teams from Sri Lanka, China or.... Korea (?) is going to make for a great spectacle.

    You need realistic goals, and teams that are going to be competitive... which the likes of NZ and Fiji can provide.
    wamberal likes this.
  8. Snowy Stan Wickham (3)

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    But if we all end up getting flogged by a Kiwi team or even just because we only have 1 Kiwi team in the comp and the Kiwis only come to that one game a year when the Kiwis are in town and they all wear their whatever the new club jumper is and let's be honest not many kiwis will spring the money to buy that they will just wear their canterbury , blues , taranaki , waikato , super club ,whatever jumper and the fall back all black jumper if that's the only one they have even though its not test match , just to show they dont give a shit about local live rugby
    its about having a competitive competition
    The best game this year in WSR was against the Panasonic Knights , competitive free flowing and result unknown and it was a friendly
    Working to build the other sides with marquee players to even the comp and build smaller unions is the Key
    chibimatty and ForceFan like this.
  9. Slim 293 George Gregan (70)

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    Que? o_O
  10. Snowy Stan Wickham (3)

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    Slim Fiji and the Kiwis are the wrong time zone and are you saying that they are not going to hand out floggings to the above mentioned teams ? or are you saying just the Force aren't allowed to hand out floggings
    The idea should be to bring marquee talent to asian teams and build them up - have competitive games with locals involved and the training for local sides around that
    Not another 30 pro rugby players for NZ based in NZ , spread the Fijians through the Asian franchises
    Joe King and chibimatty like this.
  11. Rugbynutter39 Geoff Shaw (53)

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    I suspect getting a kiwi team in wsr was to get the competition across the line but yes I am concerned as if this mean next best kiwi 6th professional rugby team they will create another one sided competition where they dominate.

    I suspect Minderoo have a plan to counter but way fiji drua are smashing oz sides in nrc it might be the force and western Sydney rugby teams will need a lot of kiwi and Fiji marquees to compete.

    Anyhow excited about wsr next year and with twiggy’s team use of marquees I am sure they have a better chance to sort out lopsided team balance. Fiji and kiwi teams have too much local talent to draw on and hence all other terms including oz teams may well struggle to competed against them but given no salary cap the cheque book behind other teams and ability to have more open borders may solve this as well.
    chibimatty likes this.
  12. chibimatty Jimmy Flynn (14)

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    Mate, the Force can't even flog Panasonic and the Fiji Warriors XV. The Force would struggle in the Mitre 10 Cup Premiership. I've got nothing against Fiji being in the competition at all. The Drua are made up of local product and I doubt the Force will flog them either. You can work from that and keep the competition competitive.

    Nobody with any sense in WA wants a competition where the Force flog everyone; they want a pro-team for the locally-developed players to aspire to play for; a competition that is exciting and open; a match-day experience that is second-to-none, better than any we had in Super Rugby and a safer match-day experience for families at the stadium than what we had when the Kiwi Super sides came to town.

    Right. One or two big name foreigners in a team may bring in the crowds, but you're going to have to recruit a majority of foreigners in your squad to compete with a fully Mitre 10 Cup Premiership quality team. And once you start doing that, it's not long before the locals start to become distant from a team that doesn't really represent them; you end up with Paris St Germain rugby league all over again.

    Keeping New Zealand's "Mitre 10 Premiership All-Stars" out of the competition means that the Force and Western Sydney teams can recruit a team to match the competition (as we arguably have done now) without one team causing a ruinous and expensive recruitment race. That money can then be put into development and also the media presentation of the competition as a whole.

    The Kiwis have an ace up their sleeve: under the current format, Super Rugby only permits 4 of their 5 teams to make the finals, no matter how good the fifth Kiwi team is. Regardless of how bad they get, Auckland will never be cut from the competition as they are NZ's biggest city with NZ's biggest stadium. Under the guise of "Mitre 10 Premiership All-Stars," reserve squad players can easily be siphoned away from the Blues (or any other franchise) and included in the Kiwi WSR team without fear that Auckland's Blues will be cut from Super Rugby for bad performances. What better way to put themselves into a strong negotiating position in a new competition, than by dominating said competition? And with the split fan-base in Western Sydney and Perth, they can point to the larger crowds with their visits and say "See? We're such a big drawcard."

    Twiggy's mob are going to get themselves into the same trouble as Super Rugby has before them.

    Snowy's right. People need to understand, Perth is in a unique situation. (Though comparable to that in Melbourne.) New Zealanders are a major part of the lifeblood of both rugby codes here, a much higher percentage of our rugby community than in the Sydney/Brisbane heartlands. They have contributed tremendously to WA rugby and it's their children who make up a large chunk of our rugby future, guys like Zack Holmes, Curtis Rona, Chance Peni, Kane Koteka being examples. But as attendances have shown, if they have the opportunity to support a Kiwi side who come to town a couple of times a year to flog the local "Australian" team, than a very significant number of them will do so -and will not support a local team- nor raise their kids to support that local team. They don't see it as their local side, they see it as a substitute Bledisloe Cup; an opportunity to come out and support "New Zealand" no matter what part of it they're from, against the hated Aussie convict duckhidz.
    FFS, even people in Southland jerseys come out to cheer on the JAFA's against the Force.

    Now I shouldn't have to say this, but I am not saying it's all New Zealanders; but it is such a significant number, (maybe 30-40%?) that you can see it confirmed in the crowd figures (which double) for both rugby and rugby league fixtures in Perth. Visits by the New Zealand teams bring the Kiwis out once or twice a year. These are local players/fans (and their kids) who should be turning up for the Force games every week. And if they were the only option in town, they'd have to turn up or see no pro-rugby at all; but more importantly, their kids would probably make them turn up, as they have been following their local team since youngsters at RugbyWA's junior clubs.

    The argument that "if the Force want Perth Kiwi fans to support them, maybe the Force should just beat them" has been disproved by the earlier attendances for the visits of the Highlanders and the Chiefs. The Force have a winning record against the Highlanders, it is no coincidence that the Highlanders were the lowest crowd-drawing team from New Zealand. It is only after the re-allocation of provinces to the Chiefs region and the subsequent premierships to both they and the Highlanders, that crowd sizes started to match those of the Crusaders. When given the option to watch a New Zealand team possibly lose to the Force; local Kiwis stayed away and waited until the Crusaders or Blues visit later in the season.

    After 13 years in Super Rugby and then again this year against the Crusaders in WSR, seeing young kids in the crowd with Aussie accents wearing different NZ team jerseys and booing the Force -while their parents look on in gleeful approval- is heartbreaking. I just hope it's not the "same shit, different bucket" for the next 13 years. And it's going to be as bad, if not worse for the Western Sydney team.

    And bear in mind too, the Crusaders game attendance was only in fourth place behind the Fiji, Tonga and Panasonic games. Plus, there was also only 240 more people at the Crusaders game than the Hong Kong Dragons game; so that puts paid to New Zealand teams being such a big draw. The All Blacks are a great draw, but if they're not "Brand All Blacks" then nobody around the rugby world is salivating at the thought of a visit from Manuwatu or the Highlanders. (No disrespect to those teams by the way)

    Yeah, I get the feeling New Zealand were going to veto it at World Rugby level. They have to get in on this competition just in case Super Rugby finishes up and they knew that they would be losing players to this competition. Also, they would have lost New Zealand players of Polynesian and Melanesian heritage to the Drua and Western Sydney; who probably would have then been selected on heritage by their respective national teams. This is not the first time they've vetoed an Australian initiative which would benefit the Islands; they blocked the Super 8's competition years ago which would have included Pacific National XVs against the Australian Super provinces and Japan.

    That game was one of the best games I've attended ever! It goes to show, you don't need the best test-match footballers in the world to have a skilful, adventurous, exciting game; Craven Week and the Japan Top-League show us that every single year. Hell, even this year's NRC has had some fantastic running-rugby tries. WSR can take heart from these competitions and it also shows that those sort of games, that type of product, can bring the crowds in; even without those players.
    todd4 and Snowy like this.
  13. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    The first ingredient for success in any competition is that we have to care who wins. "We" of course being the supporters, followers, viewers, sponsors, and so on.

    That ingredient is very difficult to manufacture overnight: indeed I would say that it is impossible to manufacture. Super Rugby was a success almost immediately because the competing teams all had identities, and we all cared who won. (It also had a lot of novelty value, because at last our sport was openly professional, and it showed).

    The second ingredient is that the quality of play has to be high.

    Get both those right and success will come. In time. But only for a period, until we get bored with it, and want something new.
  14. kiap Mark Ella (57)

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    Applies to the Wallabies right now.

    Hardly anyone cares bro.
  15. Strewthcobber Mark Ella (57)

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    Third, is a rivalry against teams people care about beating (and losing to). It's the problem Super rugby never solved, and will be the same issue for WSR.

    Need to be familiar with your opposition.
  16. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    Well if nobody cares about the Wallabies, the game is on its last legs here.
  17. kiap Mark Ella (57)

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    This is a misdiagnosis.

    Why? Because it is an effect, not the cause.

    Just take a look at the Bledisloe. They have to give tickets away now … and the attendances are still dropping, as are the viewers.

    I just hope you're not one of those folk calling for Randwick versus Gordon to become the future, Strewth. Even I'm familiar with them and I only lived in Sydney for a dozen or so years.

    People really care about that tradition and it won't be long now until it pays off. They're into the 80th year of their five-year plan …
  18. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    Tradition seems to have worked in the NRL and the AFL. Both of their national competitions are derived from what were basically suburban competitions, and still contain the roots of long standing rivalries. As well as some much newer ones, of course.

    Franchises like Collingwood and South Sydney are a hundred years old, and there are quite a few other franchises who have survived either on their own, or as part of a merged entity.
  19. kiap Mark Ella (57)

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    It will only be on its last legs if nothing happens to, … y'know … do something about it.

    "There is nothing Rugby Australia can really change. They're all top quality people doing their utmost best."

    "With Cheik it's tough only winning 2 of the last 10. But there's no one else because reasons <insert here>."

    Time will heal all so let's just sit back and wait.
  20. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    Or let us face up to reality. The AFL and the NRL are where they are because they built on their strengths. And of course it helps that they both control their own rule books, either totally, or, in the case of the NRL, in effect.

    What are our strengths? You, and many others, are very quick to point out our weaknesses. Any dill can do that.

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