Greg Martin says the Waratahs must drop Kurtley Beale

[Spook]

Martin can be rather uncharitable in his commentary at times. As a QLDer, he's also pushing Quade's case for selection. I would also argue that Cooper is ahead at this stage but this article is rather harsh. Blame Beale for Tuquiri and Turner not getting the ball? :-\

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25189165-5002381,00.html

 

[cyclopath]

Well, he's right insofar as the Waratahs have some good ball runners out wide who are not getting the ball at pace - the two named and Horne. I'm not sure Beale is all the problem - but he is a part of it. The tactics seem to be clearly to keep turning it back inside with lumbering forwards making small gains. All very well but if you don't recycle quickly (which the Tahs don't), you never make any space to actually move it wide as the defences get set too easily. That is before the whole issue of getting past the 10/12 channel is discussed. Maybe some variations need to be looked at - move it wide earlier every now and then rather than plod on with the same tactics. Not every time, but mix it up a bit. Maybe some moves off set pieces that don't involve Palu / Mumm / Caldwell just shipping it up.
I'll just wait for naza the omniscient to chime in about spinning it wide now...

 

[Ash]

How about Beale's defence vs the Brumbies? He fell off plenty of tackles, then became a road bump at fullback. Cooper's defence was decent vs the Sharks in comparison - many levels better than Beale's.

I tend to think either Beale should be dropped, or the guy in charge of the Tahs backs should be.

Beale isn't even close to Cooper in the pecking ranks for 5/8. Right now it's Gits, Cooper/Barnes, daylight.

 

[naza]

They spun it wide against the Brumbies and it backfired. The backs didn't make breaks. The backs turned over the pill and made the same silly errors they always do.

The finger continually gets pointed at coaching (but the shackles have been broken !) or the guys inside them (geez, how much help do you friggin need ?). I keep waiting for the penny to drop that these guys aren't shit hot. Including Horne, who cannot stay on his feet when tackled, which makes it very hard to retain ruck ball when you do 'spin it wide'.

Beale isn't the best but we have nobody else. Martin is accurate in saying Beale hasn't developed. We should try and lure To'omua or Lucas.

 

[cyclopath]

They spun it wide against the Brumbies and it backfired. The backs didn't make breaks. The backs turned over the pill and made the same silly errors they always do.

The finger continually gets pointed at coaching (but the shackles have been broken !) or the guys inside them (geez, how much help do you friggin need ?). I keep waiting for the penny to drop that these guys aren't shit hot. Including Horne, who cannot stay on his feet when tackled, which makes it very hard to retain ruck ball when you do 'spin it wide'.

Beale isn't the best but we have nobody else. Martin is accurate in saying Beale hasn't developed. We should try and lure To'omua or Lucas.

Not true. They did make some breaks. Then Burgess put an idiotic box kick to nowhere and possession was gone. Your reasoning that they tried it once and it didn't work does not hold water. If they were to look at a different game plan at times, and get used to a wide fast counter-attack for instance (sometimes) instead of a crap kick, they might get better. Witness Turner's break against the Reds from a kick return - the guy is quick, can step and break tackles. So can Horne and Tuqiri (if he runs hard and straight, admittedly not something we see often enough). I doubt they even train to move it wide off set play, ever. If they spend all their time training to the game plan we've been seeing, how would they get any better at anything else. That IS the coaches fault.
And the guys inside are the key - if they don't move it quickly with good flat passes in front of the man, nobody goes forward. Not even Mortlock. It starts with Burgess, then Beale.
Sure it's harder to retain ruck ball when it goes wide. The Tahs seemed to struggle to retain it even in close with the forwards there (apart from the seagulling ones). Hence you don't mindlessly throw it wide all the time. The idea is that you make breaks and score tries. A little risk for reward would be good.
I would rather see this now and again than 80 minutes of 10-man bore-a-thon rugby.
Not sure what the shackles are that you talk about.

 

[Scarfman]

The biggest problem was zero backline organisation.

Frankly, I have no idea whose fault that is: coach, fly-half or centres. But too often the Tah backs were spread out randomly in a straight line instead of being organised and running onto the ball at pace.

It's like they only planned one move ahead - turn it back inside or crash it up - without thinking what that was supposed to be achieving for your second phase. Amateur hour.

 

[Scarfman]

And Lee Grant's computer is busted so KB (Kurtley Beale) is flying solo at this point.

 

[cyclopath]

I think the organisation comes down to the coach(?es), and the 10/12 really.
Beale was a schoolboy prodigy who was not really tested enough at that level, and relied on natural ability to step and throw a pop pass to put someone through, or do it himself. S14 needs more, and he has not developed it yet.
Tahu is a good runner, and tries hard to break the line and free the hands for an offload. Again, great if it works, but neither of these guys can run a backline. From an attacking point of view, Tahu would work better off Giteau or Cooper getting front foot ball, and maybe even more so at 13. Horne has talent, but again is very young and probably not up to organising the line.
I'm not damning Beale alone here, and realise he's young. But the 10 has to be the brains.
Many have asked, but do any Scarfers know WHO coaches the Tahs backs?

 

[naza]

Many have asked, but do any Scarfers know WHO coaches the Tahs backs?

Scott Wisemantel

 

[naza]

They spun it wide against the Brumbies and it backfired. The backs didn't make breaks. The backs turned over the pill and made the same silly errors they always do.

The finger continually gets pointed at coaching (but the shackles have been broken !) or the guys inside them (geez, how much help do you friggin need ?). I keep waiting for the penny to drop that these guys aren't shit hot. Including Horne, who cannot stay on his feet when tackled, which makes it very hard to retain ruck ball when you do 'spin it wide'.

Beale isn't the best but we have nobody else. Martin is accurate in saying Beale hasn't developed. We should try and lure To'omua or Lucas.

Not true. They did make some breaks. Then Burgess put an idiotic box kick to nowhere and possession was gone. Your reasoning that they tried it once and it didn't work does not hold water. If they were to look at a different game plan at times, and get used to a wide fast counter-attack for instance (sometimes) instead of a crap kick, they might get better. Witness Turner's break against the Reds from a kick return - the guy is quick, can step and break tackles. So can Horne and Tuqiri (if he runs hard and straight, admittedly not something we see often enough). I doubt they even train to move it wide off set play, ever. If they spend all their time training to the game plan we've been seeing, how would they get any better at anything else. That IS the coaches fault.
And the guys inside are the key - if they don't move it quickly with good flat passes in front of the man, nobody goes forward. Not even Mortlock. It starts with Burgess, then Beale.
Sure it's harder to retain ruck ball when it goes wide. The Tahs seemed to struggle to retain it even in close with the forwards there (apart from the seagulling ones). Hence you don't mindlessly throw it wide all the time. The idea is that you make breaks and score tries. A little risk for reward would be good.
I would rather see this now and again than 80 minutes of 10-man bore-a-thon rugby.
Not sure what the shackles are that you talk about.

Ewen McKenzie isn't the coach anymore. So the aimless kicking has to be put down to the guys on the field making those choices. The fact we see bugger all from our back 3 in counter attack suggests that it isn't all about the quality of ball they get. They just don't have the skills, the creativity, the initiative, the chemistry to do much with the ball.

Nothing wrong with Beale or Burgess' passing. Its about the guys outside them giving them no options, overrunning passes, or not taking care of the football. Look at minute 17:30-18:30 . Gorgeous scrum by the Tah pack but Turner overruns the set play pass from Burgess. Turner is Matt Dowling level for mine - he has tits for hands. Then the Tah pack pilfer loose lineout ball from the Brumbies throw in. Horne gets beautiful ball from Burgess and Beale and proceeds to get cut down by Hoiles, turns it over as Tuqiri and Tahu are spectators at the breakdown. The forwards save the day, yet again, driving the Brumbies back and winning a free kick which then turns into a penalty shot from a dominant scrum. I don't know how the forwards tolerate such shit play from the backs. I do know that the forwards already look worn out and disenchanted from carrying so much of the load.

I don't see how we played 10 man rugby against the Brumbies. If anything, we lost because we pushed the ball wide in attack too often. Their backs (Mortlock, T.Smith, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) belted us at counter ruck.

 

[cyclopath]

I see, so Hickey and Wisemantel have no role in coaching or perpetuating a game plan that involves kicking the ball relentlessly? :nta: It is a bit laughable to be happy to blame McKenzie for a poor game plan, but completely excuse the current hierarchy from any blame. Hickey didn't turn up last week!
If you think Burgess and Beale pass well, you clearly missed most of the other games on the weekend. I'm talking about the value of a long, flat pass, which Beale does not show.
The forwards shouldering the load, eh? Set pieces are part of it and they are doing that very well, but so is muscling up at the breakdown, which the Brumbies did, and we didn't. And don't give me that rubbish about the backs being only to blame for securing breakdown ball - there are enough forwards that seagull in the backs in all teams to get in there too. How often do we see loose forwards and front rowers hanging in the three-quarter line?
I didn't say we played 10 man rugby against the Brumbies. It just sounds like that's what you would like to see with your relentless love for all things forward, and disdain for back play.
I'm talking about some variety, and wishing it could be included in the plan, and I'm pretty sure the coaching staff have something to do with that. If we keep dishing up the same plan in attack, we will be horribly found out by other teams again.

 

[Aussie D]

I gotta agree with Naza a little as Oz backs in general (not all) lack the skill set of most of the backs in the NZ / SA teams, especially our outside backs. It seems over the past few years our love of all things league in the coaching ranks has developed a generation of players who are handyman rather than skilled tradesman who know their role and perform it with distinction. Watching the Chiefs v 'Landers game last night I was thinking how great it would be if the Oz sides had a winger as good as Masaga, especially when he scored his try (how good was that). Our coaches need to return to the basics of Oz backline play (as O'Connor suggested last year) of quick hands catch-draw-pass as these days we seem to catch (if we are lucky)-wait (run 3 steps)-pass (without drawing anyone). Our play is too predictable and the kicking is dire to say the least (here is one area we can learn from league and adapt to rugby).

 

[Scarfman]

Nothing wrong with Beale or Burgess' passing.

???

Your stock is falling faster than Firepower's.

There's plenty wrong. But that's not even the main problem, it's the organisation. So I agree where you also blame the centre and outside backs for offering nothing.

The answer isn't to go back to 10 man rugby, the answer is for the backs to get organised.

 

[Pfitzy]

Including Horne, who cannot stay on his feet when tackled,

Bollocks - he's actually one of our best backs for this and his tackling impact.

 

[Rugby Rat]

Did the Tahs miss Baxter ? Maybe big Al might just be the man getting the Tahs accross the line each week. MMmmmm.

Agree that Beale was below average. With form like that he would struggle to get a run with the Cheetahs.

Tahu ??? Wasn't really fussed on him as yet. He is a very good player but may have lost a little zip.

 

[naza]

And the knives are out for Hickey already. Gary Ella says

"We keep on talking about the style of rugby they are playing. I know for certain ? that Kurtley wants to run the ball and play an expansive game. They just kick the ball too much. It is just a kickathon with NSW. They don't do anything constructive. For the first 10 minutes [last Friday night] it looked like they were going to run the ball against the Brumbies, but they then went straight back into their shell. They have got the best back line in Australia and they don't run the ball.

"And they are getting to the stage where they think they don't know how to run the ball. The skills are terrible. The catch and pass are terrible. They've got all these coaches ? I don't think the coaches know what they are doing."

"Tuqiri, Norton-Knight ? they are great runners of the ball. Give it to them,"

Gary Ella, newly appointed president of the Spin It Wide Crowd.

Let's get this right - their skills are terrible, give them the ball. WTF ?

 

[Ash]

Let's get this right - their skills are terrible, give them the ball. WTF ?

Not just that - their skills are terrible, but they are apparently the best backline in Australia! Apparently SNK is a great runner of the ball too...

 

[Spook]

The Ella brothers are compromised in the media. I think they piss at the same trough as Growden.

 

[cyclopath]

Long way off best backline, I'm afraid Mr Ella. Get the tapes of recent Reds games, or indeed the Brumbies or Force last weekend.
Skills are bad? Yep.
What are the coaches doing? Yep, good question, who knows.
Tuqiri, Turner etc can run the ball? Yep, probably, but it needs to get to them on the front foot, not paddled sideways or backwards. Nice that Kurtley wants to get it out to them, but if it means dancing sideways and flipping a hospital pass it is of no use.
The point he raises about poor development / improvement of catch / pass skills is very valid.
I'd love to see Cooper / Barnes at 10/12 - I'm sure we'd see better outcomes than we have so far.

 

[fatprop]

Turner speaks truth

Waratahs throw their weight behind under-siege fly half Kurtley Beale

By Jon Geddes
March 16, 2009

New South Wales have called for the critics to get off Kurtley Beale's back, declaring the besieged 20-year-old fly half has been unfairly blamed for the performance of the whole team.
After Friday's 21-11 loss to the Brumbies, former Test full-back and Fox commentator Greg Martin caused an interstate stir by calling for Beale's immediate dumping, claiming his weaknesses were hindering NSW.

"I think Kurtley is being made a bit of a scapegoat here, I don't think we as a team are allowing him to play his best football," Waratahs winger Lachie Turner said.

"I think we really strangled him and didn't give him many options in attack.

"When we do give Kurtley options he looks like one of the greatest players to ever have played this game. I've spent a lot of time with him and I know the things he is capable of."

The electrifying Waratahs back said it was not Beale's fault he and fellow winger Lote Tuqiri had not received more opportunities.

"I don't think we are realigning fast enough and not letting ourselves go wide," Turner said.

"That onus is on us as a backline, not on Kurtley as five-eighth.

"If we can get that right then I'm sure Lote and I will be seeing plenty of the footy."

Waratahs coach Chris Hickey said he has been happy with Beale's form but, like the team, he feels his best football is in front of him.

"Because he has been fairly high-profile since he was at school he becomes an easy target," he said.

The fact that the dissident Martin is a Queenslander has also not been lost on the Waratahs camp.

"Perhaps Greg's state allegiance is colouring his assessment of Beale." Hickey said.

And Turner added: "As much as Marto tries he is a bit one-sided. I'm not having a go at him, a lot of NSW supporters are the same."

Turner said Beale had always received a lot of attention and sometimes people expect too much from one person. "They are looking for him to be the matchwinner every time. That is not the case."

Yep attack is about giving options for the ball carrier, with no options the defensive line has it easy

Did you see the Sydney Uni mafia pumping for Hangers and Carter to play 10/12 because of "The best option for No.10 may be to pick Halangahu, a tempo player known for his quick, consistent and accurate service, and recall hard-running Tom Carter to inside centre. The pair already form an effective 10-12 combination in club rugby at Sydney University."

http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/waratahs-under-attack/2009/03/15/1237054649849.html?page=2

They forgot plodding and pedestrian in their description of "an effective 10-12 combination in club rugby"

Memo to Hickey, Horne at 12 either Tahu or Carraro at 13