How do you coach scrum improvement?

[mxyzptlk]

Send them to Europe and make them play against the best frontrowers in the world each weak.

If Australia chose people who were playing abroad, think what they could do -- send their forwards to play in the Premiership and Top 14, season them, and get them back for international competition. Scrums would be a whole different story down under.

 

[Aussie D]

Melbourne, we did that with Ben Alexander, who the Brumbies sent to Sale for a couple of seasons (prior to 2007) to learn how to scrum. From memory he spent most of his time on the bench.

 

[Chris McCracken]

No, that's not it -- this is an oooold thing in boxing. I've been hearing it since I was a kid a couple decades ago. It's not about the hours, it's about the repetition.

"10,000 reps" has been a mantra around combat sports for a long time. It's a completely arbitrary number. The idea is that you can't ever really do enough reps of the basics - so shoot for 10,000.

In the same way Gladwell's 10,000 hours has holes in it, so does the 10,000 reps thing. But both are important. What you can take away is that you can't just teach someone a skill and expect them to perform it without copious practice.

 

[Marcelo]

The main problem is that the Aussie doesn't like the dirty work. The Aussie prefers running rugby, for that reason League is more popular than Union in Australia.

Naturally, we don't have many wild fat who enjoy doing the dirty work of a prop. We have more AFL players and League players, and those sports don't accept fat players. It's a cultural issue

 

[Gnostic]

To start with Andrew Blades must be replaced. I have been calling for it to happen for a long time now as he just hasn't achieved any consistent team results and only Slipper can be regarded as having improved significantly whilst he has been in charge.

For example look at the woeful set up Australia has had in the scrum for years. The pack is not tight and backs are all over the place in terms of angles and heights and that is before they even engage. On an individual level why does Alexander have the same flaws in technique that he has always had, ie his legs are too far back on engagement meaning he hinges so often. It isn't a new issue and you will see on this forum references to it as far back as his debut year when he replaced Al Baxter, who worryingly for me had a constant issue with his binding that was never fixed throughout his career.

Now we can continually blame the players, but the fact is they should only be blamed if they are critiqued appropriately and coached and they fail to adapt and improve. Given the issues are so consistent over such a long term and the players are selected consistently I have to conclude they are not being coached properly. Indeed I doubt any prop wants to be on the receiving end of such a humiliating tour and would take on board any coaching to improve. This all feeds into the second row as well.

Basically in the near term a national forwards coach is required who has a track record of achieving results at the set pieces, and for me there are only three candidates. In order of my preference
1. Foley
2. Fischer (Regardless of his OS status his work with the Brumbies has been of the highest standard)
3. Stiles

I don't think there is another forward coach in the country with the runs on the board to do the job and I don't think Blades is even in the running.

 

[The Hinge]

Watching the way the English forwards just completely dominate our pack last night, not just in the scrums but in every physical contest.... I think we have a strength problem. Look how big & powerful the English tight five look and then look at our blokes... its boys against men out there. Obviously size doesn't always equal strength but it doesn't hurt.

I did some googling and found a video of the Wallabies S&C coach answering a question about who was the strongest Wallaby. He responded that the front rowers were the strongest, with deadlifts of 200 - 220kg. Seriously... our front row can't even hit a double bodyweight deadlift? If that's true its really, really poor. For those not familiar with strength standards let me put this into perspective.... the current WOMENS 67.5kg bodyweight class Australian deadlift record is 192.5kg.

Ok so our guys are not training to be powerlifters and could argue that they are focusing on power development or fitness instead, but most of our forwards look slow & lumbering carrying the ball and we don't appear noticeably fitter than other teams, so I'm not sure that's the case. Sure scrum technique is important but if you're at a 10-20% strength disadvantage no amount of technique is going to compensate.

 

[Pfitzy]

Strength is important, but if you're not going to direct it with good technique, you might as well play league.

 

[FilthRugby]

Scrum Doctor for 2015 = Enrique Edgardo 'Topo' Rodríguez.

He of course published the 'Art of Scrummaging'

He would know a thing or two. So, that's my suggestion.

 

[Chris McCracken]

I did some googling and found a video of the Wallabies S&C coach answering a question about who was the strongest Wallaby. He responded that the front rowers were the strongest, with deadlifts of 200 - 220kg. Seriously. our front row can't even hit a double bodyweight deadlift? If that's true its really, really poor. For those not familiar with strength standards let me put this into perspective.. the current WOMENS 67.5kg bodyweight class Australian deadlift record is 192.5kg.

I assume you're referring to the Dove Men Youtube series. I'd take that with a grain of salt as he says they "comfortably" deadlift. They probably don't max their deadlifts, anyway.


I have some video from 2011/12 that says some of the front row were squatting 300kg at that time as well. I take that with a grain of salt, as well.

Strength may be a concern, but I wouldn't make that call from publicised numbers. For the record, though, I think you may well be right in general.

 

[Sully]

I have read, no idea where, that Australian forwards do a lot more running and a less strength work than English forwards. The strength compensates for the running in making strength based efforts during the match 'easier' as a percentage of total strength (for want of a better word). Makes sense to me but I'm not an international forwards coach.

 

[Dumbledore]

Static lifts like the deadlift wouldn't translate especially well to game-strength I'd have thought. Would be much more interested to see what they could power clean. We've got too many guys who can't convert speed into power.

 

[The Hinge]

I assume you're referring to the Dove Men Youtube series. I'd take that with a grain of salt as he says they "comfortably" deadlift. They probably don't max their deadlifts, anyway.


I have some video from 2011/12 that says some of the front row were squatting 300kg at that time as well. I take that with a grain of salt, as well.

Strength may be a concern, but I wouldn't make that call from publicised numbers. For the record, though, I think you may well be right in general.

True, I guess they wouldn't be making the players' true maxes public knowledge. But even then you would think he would want to pick a semi impressive number and 200-220kg @ 120kg bodyweight is mediocre.

Without knowing their true numbers its impossible to tell but watching how badly we got dominated, I can't help but think our S&C its part of the problem.

 

[The Hinge]

Static lifts like the deadlift wouldn't translate especially well to game-strength I'd have thought. Would be much more interested to see what they could power clean. We've got too many guys who can't convert speed into power.

Strength is strength. Static lifts would be pretty transferable to the scrum, cleans probably more transferable to general play and the line out. If we had a pack full of smaller but powerful & dynamic players that would be fine but too many of our big guys look slow, lumbering and weak in comparison to their opposition.

We appear to have a strength problem and a power problem.

 

[Aussie D]

Does this come back to Bruce Ross observation that the Wallabies and Super Rugby teams do not lift big weights in season as the Kiwi teams do?

 

[Chris McCracken]

If we're on the strength and conditioning aspect, last year, the Junior Gold Cup players were told there is overwhelming evidence that lifting weights as 15-17 year olds causes injury later. They used David Pocock as a supposed example.

If that attitude permeates the higher levels, then maybe we do have a problem with S&C.

 

[qwerty51]

Replace Andrew with Cam!

 

[The Hinge]

If we're on the strength and conditioning aspect, last year, the Junior Gold Cup players were told there is overwhelming evidence that lifting weights as 15-17 year olds causes injury later. They used David Pocock as a supposed example.

If that attitude permeates the higher levels, then maybe we do have a problem with S&C.

That just gave me a headache... So essentially their argument was " don't lift weights or you might end up like one of the best openside flankers in the game".

On the junior aspect, I don't know if this is still the case but when I was a junior the locks weren't allowed to bind through the props legs and had to bind around the hip a la league scrums. This greatly de-powers the 2nd row and as such whenever we played a touring club or school team from overseas we generally got toweled up at scrum time. That rule was in place all the way through to U19's. Not sure if its still the case as I'm talking mid 1990's here, but it I can't imagine it would be beneficial to have kids coming into senior rugby having never packed a 'real' scrum.

 

[Chris McCracken]

That just gave me a headache. So essentially their argument was " don't lift weights or you might end up like one of the best openside flankers in the game".

On the junior aspect, I don't know if this is still the case but when I was a junior the locks weren't allowed to bind through the props legs and had to bind around the hip a la league scrums. This greatly de-powers the 2nd row and as such whenever we played a touring club or school team from overseas we generally got toweled up at scrum time. That rule was in place all the way through to U19's. Not sure if its still the case as I'm talking mid 1990's here, but it I can't imagine it would be beneficial to have kids coming into senior rugby having never packed a 'real' scrum.

Not only does it give me a headache, I actually found myself having to defend the players who did lift and encourage them to keep doing so as they thought it may influence selection. Fortunately, sanity seems to have prevailed this year and they encourage well designed and supervised lifting.

But the point that - if lifting had anything to do with Pocock's injuries - that it's also part of what makes him a great player was lost on a number of people.

The U19 scrum still doesn't allow crotch-binding. They are considering changing the law, but they've been doing that since I started with the juniors seven years ago.

 

[Jaghond]

Chris Mc,

Re the issue of "doing weights" as a 15-17YO - IIRC - it seemed to be more of an issue with doing "unsupervised" weight training, possibly aiming at "improving" the "pretty boy" muscles etc. Again, I am reasonably sure that there was a place where doing weights was relevant, and indeed, helpful, however, I believe that there were many who thought "too much, too soon" wasn't a great thing ( myself included, as aa mere parent, with absolultely no relevant knowledge pf the benefits - or pitfalls!).
As to the possible negative effects, particularly where young boys were going through "growth spurts" - from personal experience ( 2 sons etc etc ....)we were on the receiving end of back &leg injuries, which we suspect the weightlifting bit contributed to.
Fortunately, their teachers/trainers recognized the issues reasonably promptly, and training regimens changed ( for the better, I believe)
Thankfully, both young men have survived - and still play a bit of rugby here and there.

Conclusion - (a personal observation, naturally) - it has a place - but only in a well controlled / supervised environment - and for the right reasons !

Cheers
The Hound

 

[fatprop]

I think we need a "Mike Cron", a national scrum coach, that just works with props and coaches of all ages.

We also need to look at schools/junior rugby rules, there a too many units promoted for mobility, not stability, because scrummaging is not encouraged.

I also think we need a consistent approach to scrummaging. That means all S15 sides using the same approach - I understand different philosophies are used at different teams whereas the kiwis has a consistent outlook.

Improvement in the next 6 months? Unlikely, next 5 years, maybe