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Is it fair dinkum ?

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Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Junior,

The Wallabies do occasionally squeeze a game in against other nations. On those occasions, no-one is bleating about cheating at the breakdown.

Yes - everyone pushes the rules
Yes - the Wallabies have a fairly shithouse ruck

But - there are a few things which the ABs have taken to far, and a ref needs to hammer them so they stop it

BTW - welcome aboard, good to have another voice.
 
G

Geronimo

Guest
Something does need to be done in regard to the blatant slowing down/offside antics of McCaw and co. Yes we are whinging about it and the Kiwis are getting out their harps for us (shows their genuine concern). But this area has to either tightened up by the referrees or we become better at cheating. The All Blacks are better at most facets of the game presently and the fact that they get away with murder doesn't help
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Look, gentlemen; back in your pomp, the best part of a decade ago, the exact same was said of you. And it was true then. Refs always give the better team the bounce. Always have, always will.

Now, that does not detract from the fact that at the moment, we are labouring under a bad set of refs. And, I'm sorry to say this, but Lawrence (while far from the best), is a long way from the worst. For that, step forward Bryce Lawrence, Esq., Chickenshit Poursuivant. The man who, it now transpires, told Vickery (who should still have sorted it out, btw) after the last Lions test that he got the scrums wrong in the first one. As Vickery pointed out, bit bloody late now.

Refs will always cock up. They're human. Well, most of them; I have my doubts about Wayne Barnes. But anyway... The problem is the one Nick identified; copping out of hard decisions.

And on this one, let me have another j'accuse moment; the worst offenders, as Nick points out, are SANZAR refs, and the reason is because gobshites like Muzza Mexted bleat on about "pedantic" when they apply the Laws as you would in a normal game. Up here, Brian Moore spoffs his kecks every time a ref pings a crooked feed; I assume he's maintaining the cosmic balance at the other end of the see-saw from Muzza, but he's right. And woe betide the ref who cracks down; remember Goddard?

So, demand "pedantic" - i.e., accurate - reffing. It's to everyone's benefit, because since Rolland went to complete shit, we can't clone those samples from Chris White in time to meet demand.

In the meantime, there's a more relaxed view being taken up here to a slight tickling of those killing the ball. Enjoy...
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Thomond - clever defense, but it didn't get past me. Complaining about consistent and obviously illegal behaviour at the ruck is not the same as saying let's be pendantic about everything.

There is technically illegal activity in every ruck, scrum and maul. I don't want every physical contest to end in a penalty. But - in my opinion - the ABs have taken (i) offside (ii) not rolling away, and (iii) pillaring / fringing to an all-time high.

We've seen stuff around the rucks this year that beggar's belief - e.g., picking the ball out of rucks, pulling a ruck from the Wallabies' side, etc, and the ref just smiles and waves.

If you want to make a parallel, the Wallaby scrum was getting away with outrageous cheating in the Eddie Jones era. We got found out. And that's what I want to happen to the ABs ruck play.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Scarfman said:
Thomond - clever defense, but it didn't get past me. Complaining about consistent and obviously illegal behaviour at the ruck is not the same as saying let's be pendantic about everything.

There is technically illegal activity in every ruck, scrum and maul. I don't want every physical contest to end in a penalty. But - in my opinion - the ABs have taken (i) offside (ii) not rolling away, and (iii) pillaring / fringing to an all-time high.

We've seen stuff around the rucks this year that beggar's belief - e.g., picking the ball out of rucks, pulling a ruck from the Wallabies' side, etc, and the ref just smiles and waves.

If you want to make a parallel, the Wallaby scrum was getting away with outrageous cheating in the Eddie Jones era. We got found out. And that's what I want to happen to the ABs ruck play.

Scarfie, the problem is that Muzza, Kearns et al call anything accurate that they don't like pedantic, and anything inaccurate that they do good reffing. The dividing line being, so far as I can see, whether it allows the backs to run around looking all pretty-pretty.

Pillaring boils my piss, and there's no excuse for ignoring the hindmost foot. What, though, would happen to a ref in S14 who cracked down on it? Or in the 3N, under Paddy's reign of idiocy...?

I agree with the scrum parallel, by the way. But were you screaming about it when you were on the right end of it? No. But still, the way to deal with it is the same. Enforcement.

Get rid of the new hands-on interpretation (interpretation my ass; it's a new law by the back door). Once on the ground, everyone releases straight away, or gets pinged, everyone rolls away straight away or gets pinged and shoed. Everyone stays on their feet or gets pinged and shoed. A general crack-down, and a merciless one, is what's needed. NH hard-ass style reffing for six months, everywhere, and damn the screamers. After three months, suddenly you'll see the forwards piling into rucks, and the backs running in space. And the penny will drop.
 
C

chief

Guest
How Matt Goddard refereed was the way that we need referees now to approach the break down problem. Don't slow the ball down, or you go to the sin bin, don't use your hands in a ruck to steal the ball illegally or you go to the sin bin. Seems like Lyndon Bray really put a stop to that when he dropped Goddard, and publicly humiliated him. Stupid shit. Lyndon was the worst referee out there, its scary to think that he's in charge of Bryce Lawrence when Bryce Lawrence is a huge piece of shit referee, and no one will drop Lawrence because his daddy and Paddy were best of buddies back in the day.

But Lawrence simply was pedantic enough, call referees like Dickinson and Goddard and Barnes pedantic but at least they don't let teams get away with blatant cheating.
 
M

Mojoman

Guest
It is fair dinkum, you get the rub of the green @ times...and you don't @ other times.

It also comes down to a matter of perception. Aussies obviously view McCaw and co as "cheats" but only because the Wallabies are 0-7 against the AB's. If the definition of "cheat" is bending the rules to suit you or pushing the boundaries then I'm sure McCaw will be happy to admit he's a cheat.

I'm also perplexed @ the notion that McCaw is a protected species by Refs. To me thats just ridiculous. Thats akin to believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. Did it ever occur to some that perhaps he's just fantastic @ what he does and gets away with the finer points of rugby law definition?
 
J

junior

Guest
Blue said:
junior said:
Blue said:
Scorz said:
Pretty much every fan of any team thinks the other team gets away with it more than their own. But if you guys want to believe NZ get away with more for any reason, far be it from me to reduce the perceived aura...

Aura Schmaura.

For some reason refs ten to warn to ABs and then not see it through. I's weird.
God I wish there was a "world's smallest violin" icon on this board...

As to why McCaw and Thommos were on the Wobbler side of the ruck, it's because the yellow guys couldn't clean them out. That's kind of the point of the breakdown: to drive through, over and past the ball.

True.

PS I play the piano.
Nevertheless, your whinging is music to my ears! :thumb
 
J

junior

Guest
Scarfman said:
Thomond - clever defense, but it didn't get past me. Complaining about consistent and obviously illegal behaviour at the ruck is not the same as saying let's be pendantic about everything.

There is technically illegal activity in every ruck, scrum and maul. I don't want every physical contest to end in a penalty. But - in my opinion - the ABs have taken (i) offside (ii) not rolling away, and (iii) pillaring / fringing to an all-time high.

We've seen stuff around the rucks this year that beggar's belief - e.g., picking the ball out of rucks, pulling a ruck from the Wallabies' side, etc, and the ref just smiles and waves.

If you want to make a parallel, the Wallaby scrum was getting away with outrageous cheating in the Eddie Jones era. We got found out. And that's what I want to happen to the ABs ruck play.
Would it make a difference, though? The implication is that the ABs need to cheat to beat the Wallabies, which I know, you know and everyone knows is bullshit. Until this Wobbler team sorts out its mental issues, the ABs will play however the refs let them / want them to and still find ways to win against this Wallaby team. I mean, Kaplan was very kind to the Wallabies in Sydney, and they'd didn't count for squat at the end of the day.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Mojoman said:
It is fair dinkum, you get the rub of the green @ times...and you don't @ other times.

It also comes down to a matter of perception. Aussies obviously view McCaw and co as "cheats" but only because the Wallabies are 0-7 against the AB's. If the definition of "cheat" is bending the rules to suit you or pushing the boundaries then I'm sure McCaw will be happy to admit he's a cheat.

I'm also perplexed @ the notion that McCaw is a protected species by Refs. To me thats just ridiculous. Thats akin to believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. Did it ever occur to some that perhaps he's just fantastic @ what he does and gets away with the finer points of rugby law definition?
Welcome Mojoman.
You are quite correct - we mainly hate McCaw because he is bloody good. It is the nature of the beast as a fan that we see all the faults of our opposition and none of our own - well, maybe not that extreme but you get my point. He has perfected the art of the hit-spin-flop to seemingly always end up in the way, and if he gets away with it, well it's time for our pack to man up and get him out of the way. I notice he is schooling Thomson well in the dark arts too - he is turning into a pest as well. Our guys have got to just learn and adapt.
The initial premise on this thread that intentional bias is occurring is just plain silly. I do, however, think that some refs are more lenient on this type of play than others. I have posted before that I think his real ability is in knowing just how far to push the boundary with each ref by testing them early in the game, and few others seem to have it. Kudos to him I reckon.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Welcome MM, yeah, we all think McCaw is good. I reckoned he was the world's best player a couple of years ago. He's not that now, but he's still very very good.

Despite that, there's a couple of incredibly obvious illegal things he does at just about every ruck. And it's not just McCaw - it's the whole team. Like I said, it's like Wallaby scrummaging from a few years ago. They eventually ran out of bullshit. I just hope that the ABs get found out soon.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Here's what they're saying in the papers.

http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/bmonday-maulb/2009/11/01/1257010107171.html

It was inevitable Robbie Deans would eventually erupt. There is only so much bad karma a coach under pressure can take.

As the sequences of losses to the All Blacks keeps getting longer, Deans has attempted to retain his dignity, even when he's been burning up inside.

Deans has often been irritated at post-match media conferences, but retains the appearance of an Easter Island statue. Giving nothing away, he refuses to provide big, black headlines. He's too smart.

He repeatedly sidesteps controversial issues, even when infuriated. Privately, referees can irk him, especially those times when he believes they have treated his players unreasonably. But he constantly refuses to get sucked into vilifying the whistleblower.

Until Saturday, when he decided enough was enough. Without prompting, Deans made it obvious he thought South African referee Mark Lawrence, who is also an amateur magician, should focus on pulling rabbits out of someone else's hat. Without prompting, Deans changed the flow of the media conference, by asking: ''Can anyone tell me what the penalty count was?''

Not for the first time in our careers, we all looked dumbfounded. No answer was forthcoming. So Deans carried on.

''Well, I'd be surprised if it wasn't well and truly in favour of the Wallabies. I know the first six penalties - four of them were in the red zone - and there probably should have been a couple of others where the ball was lifted out of the rucks one metre short of the line,'' Deans said.

''That was frustrating, particularly when you're playing a fixture in Tokyo where you're trying to promote the game. I don't think it contributed well to the game.''

The Wallabies did win the penalties 13-9, but the complaint revolved around the All Blacks getting away with far too many illegalities at the breakdown, including pilfering hands in the ruck, while their captain Richie McCaw often acted with menace from a repeatedly offside position. Again McCaw was a ''protected species'' and certain Wallabies are getting peeved by that, believing they do not get the same privileges.

The Wallabies know that all the stars have to be aligned for them to beat the All Blacks and when numerous yellow-card incidents are ignored, it just makes their task that much harder. Sure, the Wallabies did not help themselves when their lineout work was so shoddy, for the fifth time in six trans-Tasman matches being unable to kick on from a half-time lead, while they went through their usual routine of repeatedly handing over possession at the breakdown, especially in the All Blacks' quarter.

But Deans's complaints are justified. Lawrence did the Wallabies no favours. The number of All Blacks in the sin bin should not have been restricted to one - Sitiveni Sivivatu for attacking Adam Ashley-Cooper in the air with a silly tackle just before the half-time break. Several other New Zealanders should have also had 10 minutes' rest and, as occurred when Sivivatu left the field, the Wallabies could have experienced greater rewards.

The Wallabies are now wondering if it is just part of the deal of playing Bledisloe Cups at neutral venues in Asia - last year Irish referee Alan Lewis stitched up the Wallabies big time in Hong Kong with an abominable performance. As Deans knows full well, when a team constantly loses, nothing seems to go your way. Surely the luck has to finally turn. Maybe the grand-slam leg of the tour can provide some reprieve.

Maybe not. As he departed National Stadium, Deans said he had just been told the weather forecast for the team's first week in London. It's apparently going to be wet, miserable, an absolute howler.

Not for the last time on this tour, Deans laughed mockingly and shook his head in disbelief.
 

Scorz

Syd Malcolm (24)
Blue said:
Scorz said:
Pretty much every fan of any team thinks the other team gets away with it more than their own. But if you guys want to believe NZ get away with more for any reason, far be it from me to reduce the perceived aura...

Aura Schmaura.

For some reason refs ten to warn to ABs and then not see it through. I's weird.
The reason is the Aura mate.

I asked this on the other thread but I think it's a fair question: Do you blokes feel like you have to beat the ref and then beat the AB's, in that order?
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Only see this one now. ::) Go watch the CC final and the way Brussouw and Stegman played the rucks. Still try to figure out which one was the biggest cheat. Thats the rule now, stay on your feet and you can poach but hope Bakkies dont run into you. :nta:
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Junior, if you're tuning in, what do you make of Deans's whinging abot the ref?

A. Fair enough, ABs cheating.
B. Fuck off Aussie Rob.
c. Like rain on your wedding day, isn't it ironic.
 
J

junior

Guest
Scarfman said:
Junior, if you're tuning in, what do you make of Deans's whinging abot the ref?

A. Fair enough, ABs cheating.
B. Fuck off Aussie Rob.
c. Like rain on your wedding day, isn't it ironic.
A little from column b and c, tbh. It's not the whinging from the ref per se that I find interesting, as I expect a bit of this from all coaches, but to hear it from Rob to me shows that he's starting to feel the pressure. My feeling is that this kind of tactic is because

a. he wants to deflect abit of the blame from himself and his team;
b. he clearly doesn't know how to get his side to win and he's decided it must be all the refs fault as that's the only logical reason for the Wobbler's laxck of success against the Blacks.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
I am one here who still thinks that McCaw is the best 7 in the world, and indeed the best loosie, and probably the best forward. McCaw hasn't been in the best of form this year though - he's been up and down. Regarding the "hit and spin to wrong side of the ruck" (which Thomson now also does) - I think more players will start doing this (if they don't, they need their heads read) and the refs will eventually crack down on it once it hits a critical mass. But if I was a Wallaby and I knew these guys were doing it, I would be lining them up with a shoulder and a token arm for a clean out - it's what any player doing that stuff deserves. You want to teach them a (legal) lesson not to be on your side of the ruck.

Think Dan Carter is the best player in the world, though. I believe that the Wallabies would've won 2 or 3 of the games against the All Blacks this year without Dan Carter playing, especially the Sydney test.
 

Moses

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
junior said:
God I wish there was a "world's smallest violin" icon on this board...
here ya go :violin:
I figure we'll need it to play for you in 2011, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2023, 2024, 2027, 2028, 2031....
 
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