Israel/Palestine

[#1 Tah]

A bit surprised to see a thread of this ilk hasn't been set up yet.

As a Jewish person living in Australia (having had experienced the cult life that is a Jewish school) I obviously have some thoughts to spew about what is currently happening over in Israel.

My understanding is the following:

1. Gaza is controlled by Hamas, a recognised terror organisation by the US
2. Over the past few years, rockets have been fired into Israel with Hamas members using human sheilds
3. This week, Israel launched operation 'Pillar of defence' starting with the assassination of a high up Hamas general, while he was in peace talks
4. Since then, violence has escalated with more attacks on Gaza
5. Hamas responded by firing rockets as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem
6. The Israel Defence force has called up 75,000 of their army reserves
7. Egypt has sided with Hamas, the US with Israel
8. Bob Carr has told both sides to peruse a peaceful solution (cute that he thinks they will listen to him

My thoughts are the following:

• A war here is a lose lose situation on both sides
• The area is too densely populated to avoid civilian casualties, which is a tragedy in itself
• Everyone in the region bar some extremists are begging for peace and quiet, they want to go about their lives
• It's so sad that a group of a few extremists are ruining everyone else's fun.

 

[Schadenfreude]

That's a pretty rational assessment.

The major problem I see is both sides have some very reasonable objections to the behaviour of the other.

For political reasons both sides take extreme positions when it comes to the other side's desire to live in peace and prosperity.

Once these extreme positions are established, negotiation becomes impossible, and the relationship inevitably deteriorates.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

I can see why Palistine stand up for themselves, but shooting constant rockets doesn't seem like the logical response. It seems the leaders of both sides want war to continue for power reasons.

I don't see how a two state solution would work. The only thing I see working is a combined effort where they all live under a similar authority. (as unrealistic as that sounds)

But I can't say I know much about this topic. Nor do I pay much attention because the conflict doesn't look like ending anytime soon.

 

[It is what it is]

All very sad and unfortunately will most probably be an issue hundreds and perhaps thousands of years from now.

 

[ChargerWA]

I think the outcome of this one totally relies on what Egypt does.

Egypt and Israel do have a peace agreement, but that was signed before 2000 and obviously before the Muslim Brotherhood came to enjoy the influence they do in Egypt.

If Egypt maintains it's peace with Israel, I expect the Israeli army to do what it did last time and mop the floor with Hamas and then pull back. If Egypt sides with the Hamas and engages Israel it could be horrific. You would expect the US to join in and support Israel.

As to the long term solution, better people than me have had a crack at solving it and gotten no where. I've always thought the solution was to raise the standard of living of Israels neighbours and help break the religious extremist views.

The correlation between increased standard of living and decline in religiousness is undeniable.

 

[Scarfman]

Very fair assessment, Tah. I would want to add a couple of things, though.

1. Israeli settlers are also a provocation on a similar scale to the mortar attacks.

2. It's important to remember that "proportional response" is international law (for what it's worth). Both the US and Israel are frequently accused on non-proportionality, and it's only the military and political power of the US that has prevented international prosecution against either state. The US frequently vetoes official UN Security Council condemnation of Israel on the grounds of non-proportionality.

Some links on: proportionality, US veto, US veto, US veto.

It goes without saying that there is significant blame on both sides (and Britain and the US) for the initiation of the conflict. But I would propose that the US's unwavering support for Israel makes it impossible for genuine reconciliation.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I would like to say that its a credit to forum members that this discussion has remained more than merely civil.

 

[Schadenfreude]

The correlation between increased standard of living and decline in religiousness is undeniable.

I'll just deny that then.

The USA is one of the most religious civilisations in history. Israel is effectively formed as a religious state. The Commonwealth is ruled by "God's earthly representative", almost all great civilisations were highly religious (Greek, Roman, Chinese, Egyptian etc) and a significant amount of education and medical science are based in religious institutions.

 

[It is what it is]

What I find fascinating is the difference between people who are 'God Loving' and people who are 'God Fearing'
Many religious followers do so because they are God Fearing and they live in dread of the potential repercussions of not worshipping their God to the letter.......the US Bible belt is full of such God fearing folks. It's a case of "The Lord says XXX so if you don't do YYY then ZZZ will happen"
Conversely there are many others who love their God and do so for the positive enlightenment it brings.
Where does God Loving V God Fearing fit into the current middle east crisis?

 

[I like to watch]

The definition of a holy war?

My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend...

 

[Schadenfreude]

The definition of a holy war?

My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend.

I think you'll find historically, it's closer to "You know our shared imaginary friend? I'm the only one who understands him. And the fact you don't understand him the same way I do means I have to kill you and take all your stuff."

 

[cyclopath]

I'll just deny that then.

The USA is one of the most religious civilisations in history. Israel is effectively formed as a religious state. The Commonwealth is ruled by "God's earthly representative", almost all great civilisations were highly religious (Greek, Roman, Chinese, Egyptian etc) and a significant amount of education and medical science are based in religious institutions.

I would say the USA is one of the more pious civilisations in history. Their broad brand of religion, something to which I do NOT subscribe, is hardly Godly. I see true faith, or religion, as compassionate, inclusive and forgiving, whereas I see much of American "God-fearing religion" as anything but. It is narrow, punitive and vengeful.
Just my opinion.
I support the idea of Israel; I do not support Zionism.

 

[Bowside]

The saddest part about this conflict is that 100 years from now nothing will have changed.

The only way I ever see this ending is if Israel decides to be the bigger man and 'give' a bit. Not because they are in the wrong any more than the Palestinians, but I think they are the only side capable of brokering the deal.

 

[Slim 293]

Israeli elections coming up........

Typical show of force to bolster the government's popularity.

 

[overthehill]

Israeli elections coming up....

Typical show of force to bolster the government's popularity.

Exactly. It's politics at its most cynical. Bibi needs to take the spotlight off the deep economic and social problems in Israel and killing a lot of Palestinian kids is always a winner.

 

[bryce]

Bibi is also in a spot of bother having pretty much endorsed Romney in the US elections. Obama and him can't stand each other.

 

[overthehill]

Asia News reported last month:

The debate on U.N. recognition of Palestine will be held in mid-November. This was announced two days ago by Vuk Jeremic, President of the U.N. General Assembly. “The leaders of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) are going to engage in extensive discussions”, said Jeremic, “coming to a conclusion as to what they want to do some time in November.”​

Palestine’s upgrade to UN “non-member observer state” status is virtually a foregone conclusion, with an overwhelming majority of the UN General Assembly expected to vote in favor and only a handful, led by the US and Israel, in opposition.
The question then is what Israel’s reaction will be, and the nation’s cabinetmet today to discuss possible “punitive” measures to punish the Palestinians for getting the enhanced level of recognition on the international stage.
Exactly what the move will be remains unclear, and with Israel already not negotiating with the Palestinians and already expanding settlements, the number of options that will actually feel like “punishment” instead of just business as usual is limited.

Antiwar.com

 

[Braveheart81]

It's a really sad situation.

Both sides are very intent on killing each other. It's just that Israel has the means to do so one hundred fold compared to Palestine.

If the IDF march on Gaza then I fear that the death toll will be very high and a lot of civilians will die.

It is sad that the west is very unlikely to intervene to assist in a ceasefire. Certainly all the current talk is to try and convince Hamas to stand down rather than convincing Israel not to continue air strikes etc.

 

[wilful]

The losers here are the Palestinian civilians. Royally screwed by both Hamas and the IDF, neither of which appear to give a fuck and neither of which will be called to account.

 

[BPC]

Gaza is controlled by Hamas who are constantly stirring up trouble. West Bank is in the control of moderates and there is nowhere near the same level of trouble. Hamas has an agenda and believe violence is the best way to achieve it. This lets right wing extremists dominate the Israeli elections. Frankly a novel solution would be to dump the extremists on both sides on a deserted island and let the moderates try to calm things down.