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Jim Williams BONED

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N

Newter

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For Jim to have done a good job, you would have to take all those outstanding moments, string them all together and hit the loop button cos there aren't a lot of games where his pack dominated.....

Is that the measure of him "doing a good job"? Bit unfair if you ask me, given the quality of forwards available to other Test coaches.

Forwards coaches of the last ten years:
Ewen McKenzie - smashed by England in the 2003 final
Andrew Blades - two ordinary years and then booted
Michael Foley - lost 5 out of 6 to the All Blacks, smashed by England in the 2007 World Cup.
Jim Williams - won the Trinations in 2011. Won in the Republic a few times. Won at Twickenham, at France. Won a QF.

Has there been a better Wallaby forwards coach lately?
 
N

Newter

Guest
I have.

This was not a s15 game and rod macqueen was no longer the coach.

You're assuming there was no direction about where the kickoff had to go.

It is hard to imagine a worse start: even if he wanted to pull a bootleg play why couldn't he play the percentages at such an important tournament in the most important game? Because he is a law unto himself and thinks he knows better than people with more experience and brains.

Did you see any of his games when he was the U21 5/8 in the World championship - anyone who did would have had misgivings about his big game psyche.

You make a fair point. I can't recall a risky play ever coming off that well for Quade in Test rugby. May be worth considering.

But I'd invite you to watch the game again. He played the percentages 80% of the time and did well. Underplayed his hand, distributed, made his clearance kicks.

He didn't make a single mistake in the second half, despite touching the ball dozens of times. In fact he only made 4 errors in the entire match.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Is that the measure of him "doing a good job"? Bit unfair if you ask me, given the quality of forwards available to other Test coaches.

Forwards coaches of the last ten years:
Ewen McKenzie - smashed by England in the 2003 final
Andrew Blades - two ordinary years and then booted
Michael Foley - lost 5 out of 6 to the All Blacks, smashed by England in the 2007 World Cup.
Jim Williams - won the Trinations in 2011. Won in the Republic a few times. Won at Twickenham, at France. Won a QF.

Has there been a better Wallaby forwards coach lately?

Foley was still an assitant coach in 2008 when the Wallabies beat the All Blacks at home, and beat England and France away...

And Foley was actually the set piece coach, and was replaced by Noriega...
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Oh, and in your selective timeline you forgot to mention that Mckenzie was an assitant under McQueen during part of our golden era...
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
Is that the measure of him "doing a good job"? Bit unfair if you ask me, given the quality of forwards available to other Test coaches.

Forwards coaches of the last ten years:
Ewen McKenzie - smashed by England in the 2003 final
Andrew Blades - two ordinary years and then booted
Michael Foley - lost 5 out of 6 to the All Blacks, smashed by England in the 2007 World Cup.
Jim Williams - won the Trinations in 2011. Won in the Republic a few times. Won at Twickenham, at France. Won a QF.

Has there been a better Wallaby forwards coach lately?

To say that Jim Williams is a better forwards coach than McKenzie & Foley is ridiculous. Our scrum wasn't great by 2003 but certainly clever as we managed to win our fair share of scrum penalties during the 2003 final. McKenzie's time as forwards coach was between 2000 & 2003 during that period I'd say our forward pack definitely held it's own.

Everyone blames Foley for 2007 but Alec Evans was the scrum coach right up until departure when he broke his ribs in a lineout drill.

Foley was only just leaving his mark on the Wallaby forwards when he left in 2008 he had the toughest job of all & that was cleaning up after Eddie & Blades. Foley was still in charge in 2008 when our scrum demolished the Poms @ Twickers which is still one of the great underdog stories of Australian rugby.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
To say that Jim Williams is a better forwards coach than McKenzie & Foley is ridiculous. Our scrum wasn't great by 2003 but certainly clever as we managed to win our fair share of scrum penalties during the 2003 final.


We won far more than our fair share, if you define "fair" properly.


The moment our scrum came under pressure, Bill Young collapsed it. Not only in the 2003 final, it was a tried and tested ploy for some time. Thank goodness those days have well and truly gone.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
We won far more than our fair share, if you define "fair" properly.


The moment our scrum came under pressure, Bill Young collapsed it. Not only in the 2003 final, it was a tried and tested ploy for some time. Thank goodness those days have well and truly gone.

We weren't the only ones: the ABs used to (and may still for all I know) how to collapse their scrum....
 
N

Newter

Guest
To say that Jim Williams is a better forwards coach than McKenzie & Foley is ridiculous. Our scrum wasn't great by 2003 but certainly clever as we managed to win our fair share of scrum penalties during the 2003 final. McKenzie's time as forwards coach was between 2000 & 2003 during that period I'd say our forward pack definitely held it's own.

Everyone blames Foley for 2007 but Alec Evans was the scrum coach right up until departure when he broke his ribs in a lineout drill.

Foley was only just leaving his mark on the Wallaby forwards when he left in 2008 he had the toughest job of all & that was cleaning up after Eddie & Blades. Foley was still in charge in 2008 when our scrum demolished the Poms @ Twickers which is still one of the great underdog stories of Australian rugby.

I think on the evidence, all three are very good forwards coaches. I wasn't really trying to establish a pecking order, just pointing out that the general assessment of Williams here has not been put into perspective.

I mean look at what you've said here - McKenzie is better because his forwards "held their own". As though Williams never achieved that during his time? Not to mention the wallopings McKenzie's forwards took in 2003 in the Trinations. The All Blacks put 50 on us at home that year.

Foley ran the scrum that dominated England once at Twickenham, true. Didn't Williams and Noriega oversee the domination of the Springbok scrum in Durban this year?

Let's just keep it real. When he had the cattle fit and available, Williams got some outstanding performances out of the Wallaby pack.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Newter, once again you're being selective with your facts here...

By your logic, McKenzie should actually be judged a success on his entire tenure on that one performance in the 2003 RCW semi final when the Wallaby forwards dominated the AB's....

Williams hasn't had very many outstanding performances with the Wallaby pack...

In fact, for the most part it's been rubbish... They've continued to be inconsistent, and frequently allowed themselves to be bullied by other teams...

At least for a few years under McKenzie we had a CONSISTENT dominance/competitiveness over the AB's and other top teams (3 Nations titles, Bledisloe Cup retention, Lions series etc)...
 

Bullrush

John Hipwell (52)
Let's just keep it real. When he had the cattle fit and available, Williams got some outstanding performances out of the Wallaby pack.

Yes, let's keep it real - after 3 years with this pack, it was still rightly perceived and targeted as the weakness in the Wallabies which teams as far below them in the world rankings were able to exploit and build wins on.

Performances like Bledisloe II last year proved that Williams had the 'cattle' but he (and Deans) were unable to get them to consistently put in those type of performances.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Newter, once again you're being selective with your facts here...

By your logic, McKenzie should actually be judged a success on his entire tenure on that one performance in the 2003 RCW semi final when the Wallaby forwards dominated the AB's....

Williams hasn't had very many outstanding performances with the Wallaby pack...

In fact, for the most part it's been rubbish... They've continued to be inconsistent, and frequently allowed themselves to be bullied by other teams...

At least for a few years under McKenzie we had a CONSISTENT dominance/competitiveness over the AB's and other top teams (3 Nations titles, Bledisloe Cup retention, Lions series etc)...


Why is consistency an assistant (specialist) coach's responsibility?
It seems to me that the tools to perform at an acceptable level are an assistant's responsibility: the Wobblies performed at that level, by way of example, for the first 40 minutes in Brisbane and the last 10. (I use this example 'cos its recent and readily remembered).
Once the team demonstrates that it has acquired the tools that enable it to compete with the best any failure to deploy those tools on a given occasion must be due to something other than lack of the players having been provided with those tools.
It seems to me that its a mental issue: its unlikely to be about motivation, IMO.
Who is responsible for the mental preparation: the head coach and the players (sure, the assistants aren't there to undermine and no doubt they do their best to add to the prep).
So one of these 2 is responsible: if, on any given day, its the players then the head coach hasnt done his job.
Therefore its the head coach's responsibility if players who can get the job done dont.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Its funny that so many get sidetracked into arguments over the relative merits of middle management and the impact they have on the charges they are given. In 2003 the Wallaby pack was equal 2nd best in the world IMO. England were by far the strongest in terms of 1st 15 and depth. Then Wallabies and NZ. Jones and his team did a terrific number of the ABs that year yes they conceded one in poor fashion but they also worked out the tactics that would beat the ABs later in the year.

A couple of years on and the Jones game plan was very stale and the continuing League style Rugby he was playing contributed greatly to the performances of his assistants. Have a look at the squads selected and there is a frightening homogeny between the players in terms of physical stature and to a certain degree game play from the front row to the 15. There was a dicernable lack of any focus on the set piece, which was really an interuption of the unlimitted tackle League that we were seeing. It is ironic that one can trace the genisis of that game plan from Macqueen's steady recycling and grinding game plan that served him well until 2002 (when against the Lions the writing for that plan was plainly on the wall). So when blaming coaches for the dire forward play by the Wallabies from 2004 onwards many stones are cast at the assistants, but did they get to choose or even have a say in who they would get for the set pieces they would get derided for? Bill Young was far from the best LHP in Oz yet he got selected for a reason, as I would say Alexander does now.

Williams is now copping it sweet for the failure of his set pieces and general lack of efficiency from his forwards but I have to ask, in the last 4 years when have we seen a Wallabies pack composed of the best players in their positions selected to make a cohesive whole? I would say we have seen a pack with a few different faces selected purely for one thing, speed, agility and counter attack. The assistants are then told that they have to ensure that those players selected (in the positions that Deans et al specify) will ensure clean ball on their own set piece and ruck. Occassionally, very occassionally they will combine well enough to pressure the opposition at those phases but rarely given the pack is not formed to do that. Nobody should be surprised by that.

So look at the facts, no matter what the "review" finds somebody had to be sacrificed, hence Williams is gone, I would suggest that Noriega would also have been sacrificed if there was a high profile scrum coach available to take over, but I would suggest that Foley and Mackenzie have both indicated by their actions that they will not take the job. That leaves Nucifora and blind Freddie can see where his ambition lies and he will not want to be tainted by what bodes for the next two years under Deans, more of the same medicocrity dressed up as success.

For those who state that Williams contract was up and he was not sacked "his contract was not renewed", the ARU "renewed" the contract of his boss who has exactly the same success rate in this position. Williams was appointed by Deans after he "won" (I say that with much derision that the internet cannot convey) his position. A position he "won" without any real planning as to who would be his support team, as was the case when he applied and was declined the AB spot. When Henry and Co were reappointed in 2007 by the NZRU it was a unit proposition, all were reappointed as a group or all would have been replaced.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Nuci is gone gnostic. It is said his position was only for the cup, he ended his tenure then conducted the review as to be impartial
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Nuci is gone gnostic. It is said his position was only for the cup, he ended his tenure then conducted the review as to be impartial


I know he isn't "coaching" anymore he is the high Performance director or some such now. My comment is that apart from Link or Foley he would be the only other duly experienced candidate for Noriega's position. Hence Noriega is safe no matter what.
 
N

Newter

Guest
Newter, once again you're being selective with your facts here...

By your logic, McKenzie should actually be judged a success on his entire tenure on that one performance in the 2003 RCW semi final when the Wallaby forwards dominated the AB's....

Actually yes, I think that was a major credit to his CV.

Williams hasn't had very many outstanding performances with the Wallaby pack...

In fact, for the most part it's been rubbish... They've continued to be inconsistent, and frequently allowed themselves to be bullied by other teams...

I disagree. The Wallaby pack has been one of the most dynamic, mobile and effective counter-rucking packs in Test rugby under Jim Williams. The scrum has never been much good, but everywhere else: dominant tackles, turnovers, meters, continuity - it's been pretty good on average.
When have we actually been "bullied" by other teams? I can only think of the Ireland game this year, and the Samoa game - on both occasions we were fielding 2nd and 3rd stringers in the forward pack.

At least for a few years under McKenzie we had a CONSISTENT dominance/competitiveness over the AB's and other top teams (3 Nations titles, Bledisloe Cup retention, Lions series etc)...

Was it so consistent? We were pretty ordinary at times in 2002 and 2003, depending on available players. The All Blacks beat us 3 out of 5 during that time. Even the hopeless Springboks of that era kept beating us in the Republic.

I don't think the Wallaby pack was considerably superior under McKenzie than it was under Williams.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Newter, all that slow ball you see can be attributed to a pack that often gets dominated at the breakdown...

Effective counter rucking unit?!

Doing it a handful of times over 4 years doesn't constitute an effective counter rucking unit...

The Wallabies breakdown has generally been saved by having back to back world class opensides in Smith and Pocock...
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
I know he isn't "coaching" anymore he is the high Performance director or some such now. My comment is that apart from Link or Foley he would be the only other duly experienced candidate for Noriega's position. Hence Noriega is safe no matter what.

Actually he was always High Performance Director. We only knew he was coaching because players started talking about his input into training, especially around the breakdown, and that he started showing up in the coaches box and at pressers.

Clearly he is being allowed to keep his coaching CV ticking over so it doesn't go stale, without the need to be tainted by shit performances.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Nuci is gone gnostic. It is said his position was only for the cup, he ended his tenure then conducted the review as to be impartial

Without casting any aspersions on WJ, this statement encapsulates what is wrong with the ARU. Any organisation that chooses one of the involved coaches to conduct an independent review of performance has serious credibility issues. They have no idea of the meaning of the word "independent" and I would venture to suggest they had Nucifora do it only so they could adequately control the outcome.

A real independent review would have been done by a senior qualified coach, probably from overseas, but certainly one with no involvement with the Wallabies or the Super franchises. But I venture to suggest that such a review would have made Deans' future untenable and brought into question the judgement of the CEO, and we couldn't have that, could we.
 
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