John Papahatzis

[Lee Grant]

LG, I wish I had been at that memorable game for more reasons than just the result. Just trying to keep some perspective on the spirited debate!

Very well but don't make a habit of it. The next thing you know this bad trait may be picked up by others and we'll see opinions like: Deans is a good coach, Giteau sometimes plays well, Sharpe is effective, Elsom knows how to play 6 and Queensland won't necessarily win the Super15 next year.

It won't do: we can't allow that kind of thing; we have our standards.

PS. Geez - that was a nice catch of that pole in your avatar. Or were you just having a good time?

 

[observer]

I am not a supporter of the 2010 Papahatzis experiment nor am I a one-eyed GPS or CAS snob. I saw most of the games from which the NSW Schools sides were selected and clearly Papahatzis was operating with a different agenda.

Correction of inequitable and competing rugby systems by biased selections is not a solution and only does our game more harm that good.

It has taken Papahatzis years to build his reputation and influence. He may regret his 2010 experiment.

Well said Catchy

 

[I like to watch]

catchy, that's a lot of words condeming a man who you do not seek to denigrate.
"obviously a clever self-publicist and a highly political animal."
"In my opinion, St. Edmunds and St. Augustine’s success in their respective competition lies in the fact that Papahatzis or Langtry introduced a professional schoolboy Rugby program"
When you say augs ambushed Joeys earlier this year, did you see the game? joeys were outclassed, their backs were terrified of running the ball, the Augs centres clearly had spiders on their jumpers, as they appeared to run at will. It doesn't matter how many warmup games you have played, if you are intimidated today you will be intimadated in a month.
The history lesson is interesting but not valid. the landscape has changed.IMO any CHS kid with ability & without an NRL contract has been offered a scholarship. therefore the CHS 1's of today are a mixture of kids that would normally have been in the 2's together with "Mungo's" who do not get scolarships due to their League commitments.look at the GPS reps this year, how many were in the CHS sytem for a few years before attending GPS schools? Similiarly I believe there are also a few from Augs in this category.
In the discussions before the trials how many were objecting to the selections? I have no doubt the 3 backs deserved a starting position in the of the sides, the 2nd rower made aus A's, that leaves the prop. hardly that controversial.
Of the other ISA players selected in the 1's, the prop was selected in aust, the fullback in aust a, the winger was apparently in the mix. that leaves the 9, who was disappointing.
All your comments are predicated upon the Aust selectors being infallible, is it not possible that they also made some errors even tho they saw twice as many games for their selections?
I don't want to bag kids, but one of the 5/8's made enough significant errors in one game that both lead to tries that should have ensured he was not selected, he was..

 

[catchpole]

Iltw,

You make some valid points to which I respond:

I am not denigrating the man, simply the situation and policy/selection process to which he contributed.

I applaud the adoption of a professional approach to schoolboy rugby programs. I attempted to point out that compared to some programs the contest becomes uneven and the gap is widening.

I was not at the Auggies v. Joeys game but clumsily attempted to draw a loose comparison/contrast between the Joeys/Eddies game and the Joeys/Auggies game. I wish that I had been at both.

When I used the term "ambushed" I referred to the point that the game was played at a time in the season that suited St.Augustines more than Joeys.

As a product of the CHS system I heartily agree that it has regrettably and irrevocably changed. I strongly believe that young players who hope to play sport on a professional basis should understand the meaning and moral obligation of a contract. Accordingly, I believe that if a young player is contracted to a Rugby League franchise then he should not be selected in a representative Rugby team, at that point in his career. A deal is a deal.

Prior to Friday 25 June 2010 I had not seen any of the ISA or CHS players.

In my posting on Saturday 26 June 2010 on the NSW Trial Games & Selections Picks thread, I “nominated” the following ISA & CHS players that thoroughly impressed me on that evening, in my two NSW Schools squads (no reserves benches selected):

R. Dombkins – ISA
W. Wessells – CHS
D. Smith – ISA
J. Hall – ISA
S. Vaka - ISA
S. Brisby – ISA
J. Purcell – ISA
M. Hingano – ISA
J.Seage – CHS

After that posting on Saturday 26 June my comments become completely academic as the Combined Sates teams was selected a few days later after no further games and I did not attend the National Championships in July. However, at that point in time my posting and nominations speak for themselves.

I agree with your point regarding the National Selectors not being infallible. I don’t even know who they all are. But I make the point that if Manu Sutherland is one of them, he sees a wide selection of players over an extended period of time, in some cases years, in a variety of games and drills against a variety of opposition. Right or wrong, I place my faith in him and his Queensland counterparts as opposed to any self interest group representatives from any particular school system.

Selections oversights are inevitable but a system that provided for some previously discarded players to come through to National Representation, via the Combined States selection at the National Championship, allows some hope that the system is improving.

I hope the above comments provide some insight into the thought process of my previous posting.

 

[I like to watch]

catchy,

I am confused, you are now saying that you agree that 4 of the 5 Augs kids should have been there?

And instead of the coach having the final say, and having "subconcious prejudices" about kids he sees play regularly.That his place be taken by Manu who would have the same "subconcious prejudice" about a different set of kids?

I understand that he currently does have input in the selections on an informal basis.

We all need to bear in mind that these are are not fee paying positions,and despite the grumblings about selections past & present. the men doing it are doing it for the right reasons, and giving up their own time to do so.

 

[catchpole]

Iltw,

I apologise if that component of my rant appears confusing.

Thats what I posted on Saturday 26 June prior to the announcement of the NSW Schools sides and I can't retract those sentiments. In that post my nominations were spread over the two teams, with most of the ISA players names being preferred in my NSW 2nd XV. Conversely Papahatzis selected his ISA players in the NSW 1st XV. At that stage I had no idea of where those players might end up after the National Championships.

My objection relates to the fact that while some of the ISA players warranted selection in the NSW teams, I thought that the disposition of the 1st XV and 2nd XV was confused by the bias of the Coach and sole selector.

As specific examples I preferred Cameron Clark at fullback to Luke Keary, the Oakhill fullback selected by John Papahatzis. I preferred Tom Connor and Boyd Killingworth at 6 & 7 to James Dargaville and Stuart Goodman. At halfback I preferred Waldo Wessells and Tim Donlan and did not even imagine Ben Black progressing beyond that stage of selections. In the centers I preferred Apo and Chris Ingate over J. Purcell and M. Hingano etc etc etc.

My comment about Manu Sutherland referred to the balancing/moderating effect that he and his Queensland counterparts appear to have after the selections have been cast and the teams have participated in the National Championships and the results posted. This moderating effect only takes place after the games of the National Championships have been completed by the selected State and Combined teams.

In this regard I like the concept of input by non-school system aligned selectors or commentators that work with a group of players from a wide variety of backgrounds.

 

[Lee Grant]

I apologise if that component of my rant appears confusing.

Rants should never seek to clarify. Doing so may force the ranter to offer a few facts which may prove a point of rantees.

Always use the vibe. I love the vibe.

 

[lily]

So what do you guys expect to happen? Maybe appoint Tim Wallace or Jarred Hodges and Tim Rapp. I guess if they do the latter we will be having the same arguments next year. I know this is simplistic but they should take this disappointment in their stride. Did Nick Farr Jones make schoolboys? How about a cast of thousands who have gone on to play for their respective countries? Last year Ben Volavola played GPS 3rds this year 2nd grade for West Harbour. He didn't let the disappointment affect him. If he was a whinger like some on this forum he probably would be playing second grade colts like a couple of other NSW reps at Gordon. Instead he didn't get mummy or daddy and mates to submit posts suggesting that he was robbed. Same goes with countless others. Get on with and stop looking for scapegoats.

 

[lily]

Hingano NSW2s last year
Purcell NSW 16s last year
Brisby NSW1s bench last year
Dombkins - Wasn't he in the 16s as well
Finally Mokofisi who is questionable.
Hardly left field selections.


Dombkins was in nsw 16's last year very mobile player, made Aus a at only 17 great work. also Malietoa Hingano made Aus schools, so much for power house auggies having a star football team.

Well Well Well. Dont post if you dont know the background. These players have talent and maybe didn't deliver on a national level but either didCooper or Beale in their years when To'omua outplayed them both at the championships and John Kennedy did the same in the GPS vs CHS game. YOu choose a team knowing their strenghts, sometimes they choke. Not the coaches fault.

 

[AussieDominance]

So what do you guys expect to happen? Maybe appoint Tim Wallace or Jarred Hodges and Tim Rapp. I guess if they do the latter we will be having the same arguments next year. I know this is simplistic but they should take this disappointment in their stride. Did Nick Farr Jones make schoolboys? How about a cast of thousands who have gone on to play for their respective countries? Last year Ben Volavola played GPS 3rds this year 2nd grade for West Harbour. He didn't let the disappointment affect him. If he was a whinger like some on this forum he probably would be playing second grade colts like a couple of other NSW reps at Gordon. Instead he didn't get mummy or daddy and mates to submit posts suggesting that he was robbed. Same goes with countless others. Get on with and stop looking for scapegoats.

Ironic that Zac Fell Aus A schoolboys now joins Manly?

 

[I like to watch]

"My objection relates to the fact that while some of the ISA players warranted selection in the NSW teams, I thought that the disposition of the 1st XV and 2nd XV was confused by the bias of the Coach and sole selector."

That's it catchy? All those you quote as unjustly in the 2's were ALL selected for higher honours (except Clarke who was injured)
All these posts & that's it?
Hope your kid is in yr 11 this yr so he gets another crack next year

Lily....you nailed it!

 

[catchpole]

Iltw,

No point to prove, no barrow to push and no son vying for selection. I just feel that the system should be improved and as transparent as possible.

 

[Lindommer]

LG, I wish I had been at that memorable game for more reasons than just the result. Just trying to keep some perspective on the spirited debate!

I was there, I was one of the touch judges! For the first five or so minutes with the big Eddie's forwards pounding their smaller Joeys opponents I thought the famous St Joseph's rugby team might be in trouble. Don't forget there was a tipping competition in the Canberra Times during the preceding week when Eddie's supporters were asked how much start Joeys should get, the consensus was 25 points. But after 10 minutes it became apparent the fierce blue heeler attitude of the Joeys forwards wasn't letting the Eddie's boys through. And then the floodgates opened with Beale, Betham and co cutting loose. They were far too fast and skilful for Eddie's, the pace of the game was quite beyond them.

Wasn't the score 45-0?

 

[Informer]

Ironic that Zac Fell Aus A schoolboys now joins Manly?

Dummy spit cos McCaffrey got the nod in firsts colts? Manly colts an easier option.

 

[qwerty51]

Last year Ben Volavola played GPS 3rds this year 2nd grade for West Harbour. He didn't let the disappointment affect him. If he was a whinger like some on this forum he probably would be playing second grade colts like a couple of other NSW reps at Gordon.

Couldn't believe he missed out. Was the best fly-half for sure

 

[I like to watch]

Iltw,

No point to prove, no barrow to push and no son vying for selection. I just feel that the system should be improved and as transparent as possible.

Catchy,

With respect that is crap.

Read your posts, they are personal attacks on the man, somewhat cleverly written but each of them targeting the man, not the process.

No agenda No barrow to push? then why trawl over his record over the last 10 years & comment on why these victories had little value? How does this have any bearing on the PROCESS of how NSW Schoolboy selections should be conducted.

Any reasonable person with a gripe with the man,would ring him and give him a gobful,as it is not hard as the School is in the white pages.

However,that would take little more courage than sticking it to him anonomously on a forum, where he has no right of reply.

 

[NorthernSon]

I LIKE TO WATCH.

Hmmm, If thought this is a forum where opinions may be expressed on such matters.

The common issue on this thread is that the process was flawed. Having a current and active schoolboy coach annointed as sole selector at his request was always doomed.

The individual himself comes across as a good communicator but fell into the old Kevin Rudd syndrome of using the office to exert power without heading the advice of his ministers or caucus.

The word from the camp is now out, the 1's boys from the non ISA team rocked up on the first Monday and knew they were in trouble from the 1st session as key positions were being filled by some boys that were unlikely to make Waverly 2nds, or Joeys 4's.

There was quiet discussions amoungst the NTS boys that were along the lines of shit how did this happen?

Anyway the ARU's Whits and Manu corrected the failings of the system with selections in the OZ teams.

The experiment is over and unfortunately for John his successful career tarnished a little by a huge error in judgement.

 

[Lee Grant]

OK fellows - on that note let's end this thread. All the points have been made and counterpoints offered. Anything further will lead to slanging matches which is not our go here.

Good night and good luck.