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Julia's Reign

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Scotty

David Codey (61)
Scotty the industry specific graph doesn't necessarily bear this out with regard to construction. Is there something you can point us to which supports your assertion?

No, that is why I called it anecdotal evidence. This occurred in the first 6-12 months of Rudd's term. It may have weakened since then, but I do specifically remember quite a few reports coming out of WA of increased union activity leading to sites being shut down. I also recall Gillard having to get involved to 'send a message to the unions'. It must be a difficult thing to do, when that is where your power comes from.

The sources of my 'anecdotal evidence' included a foreman for Hutchinsons on a shopping centre, a construction manager for the same company on Skilled Park Stadium, and a high level manager for a company called Workpac, that supplies labor to the construction and mining industries. I also understand that some of the issues were worse in Melbourne than Qld - including unions using thuggery tactics to ensure non-union workers were scared to turn up to work.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Someone is confused my friend but it's not me.

I know the graphs you posted refer to working days lost because I read the titles. However, the average working days lost throughout the Labor period is lower than that for the LNP Coalition and far lower than the highs of 2000 through to 2004 which are shown on the graph you posted. That is why I called your analysis below disingenuous.



Perhaps I should have just said it was wrong.

Your explanation and your backtracking fail to explain how my graph, which says nothing about productivity, was relevant to your point about lags. The use of "disingenuous" is unfortunate in light of the fact that nothing you have said goes remotely near showing that I was
lacking in candour or frankness, insincere or morally fraudulent. I suspect you didn't know what the word meant.

I made no mention of average days lost but yours is not a very good point. The low base of disputes at the beginning of the reign of incompetence would inevitably mean that the average was low - but the trend is upward whereas it was downward prior to your mates getting hold of the levers.

You seem to miss the point that the trends are the opposite to the ALP advertised expectation: or are you being disingenuous?
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Your explanation and your backtracking fail to explain how my graph, which says nothing about productivity, was relevant to your point about lags. The use of "disingenuous" is unfortunate in light of the fact that nothing you have said goes remotely near showing that I was
lacking in candour or frankness, insincere or morally fraudulent. I suspect you didn't know what the word meant.

I made no mention of average days lost but yours is not a very good point. The low base of disputes at the beginning of the reign of incompetence would inevitably mean that the average was low - but the trend is upward whereas it was downward prior to your mates getting hold of the levers.

You seem to miss the point that the trends are the opposite to the ALP advertised expectation: or are you being disingenuous?

I don't think we'll get anywhere with this because we're speaking at cross purposes but I'll try.

I've not backtracked. The graphs to which you refer don't show enormous spikes. One shows high figures in mining for the December quarter. Because it is only for a quarter (and not over time), there can be no spikes.

The other graph shows a small spike followed by a period of low activity and then another small (but still growing) spike. Prior to these small spikes there was a period of high (and, I agree, decreasing) activity. In the context of the far higher earlier figures, the increases under labor are not enormous. In fact they are dwarfed by the prior figures (which only go back to 2000 and therefore are hardly an accurate historical reflection in any event). To describe small spikes as enormous to make a point is disingenous (which, if I didn't know the meaning, means I just got lucky).

To put it simply, the graphs you rely upon to support your assertion that industrial disputes "show an enormous spike" under Labor do not support your conclusion.

I said in my initial post that the more interesting graph was the one that I posted which showed productivity in US dollars over time. Then I began a discussion which mentioned lags. That discussion was not linked to your discussion.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
The graph you reproduced charts the ratio (per centage) of Australian productivity to US: it is not a graph in US dollars.
US dollars we used to determine the per centage.

Since you are so wise (and condescending) you might tell us whether that means that movements in the exchange rate are factored in or factored out?
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Totally agree, Gnostic, as my post above suggested.
Funny thing is, I suspect he might be pretty good as a Foreign Minister, but I do not think he deserves the free entry to such a position based on his track record. Some of his old mates were some of the most appalling politicians this state has seen, and we've seen a few.
The final act of rushing the desalination plant through , despite advice from several quarters that it was bad policy (and advice from weather experts that the medium term outlook for Sydney was wet, wet, wet) stank of dirty politics.
Stepping immediately into a 500K / year Mac Bank consultancy was the icing on it all.


Considering how many of the old Labour Government in NSW have been disgraced and found to have profitted in some way or another (or close associates have) through major Government procurements the question has to be asked who got the cash for the Desal plant and what was their connection to which ever minister was bought off.

I find it very suspicious that Arbib resigns for an ex-NSW Premier known for his total control of the factions. Surely nobody can doubt that Arbib who by all accounts was on the rise in the Federal Labour Party was tapped on the shoulder by higher powers to make way for Carr. The fact that Smith and Co. never had a chance at the job is telling of backroom power deals.

For me the Labour party is corrupt to the core and whilst it is a bad thing in the short term perhaps the best thing for Australia long term is the total destruction of the Labour Party as a force at the next election which could well happen. A pity the Democrats ceased being a party after Meg Lees apostacy or they could have become a true second party in place of Labour. I fear the void however could be filled by the Greens who to be frank are about as detached from the mainstream as is possible, as most radicals are, they are just moderate in the face they present to the public, most of the time.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Swan is now grasping at straws in his attack on the mining magnates. There is about 10% truth mixed in with a lot of bs and a huge amount of desperate politics.

He says that he is proud of the labor party ties to the unions and that the mining magnates have powers that everyday Australians don't (really? You don't say?). He says that the liberal party is 'singing for their supper' when it comes to big business.

I wonder how many people will see the irony and falsity of his comments:

- labor have long relied on union advertising to support them.
- union advertising far exceeds any other political advertising outside the major parties
- his union member constituents are far greater represented in political advertising than professional middle class Australians or business persons are
- now that there is some private political advertising against labor they are crying foul!

Oh the irony.
 

Rob42

John Solomon (38)
Swan's whining really grates on me. He is in the best position to do something about it rather than just complain. It might have been his frenemy Rudd who capitulated to the miners on the original super-profits tax, but Gillard's efforts have been no better on that front. Put your money where your mouth is, Wayne: pass some legislation to fix the "problem" rather than bleating to the Press Club about it.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The graph you reproduced charts the ratio (per centage) of Australian productivity to US: it is not a graph in US dollars.
US dollars we used to determine the per centage.

Since you are so wise (and condescending) you might tell us whether that means that movements in the exchange rate are factored in or factored out?

Yes, apologies, you're right. It doesn't say that exchange rates have been set at a base level so I assume it's based on a fluctuating rate.

Any thoughts on the other points?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I've made them.
Industrial disputes since the ALP came to power have increased. That is a fact which contradicts the long term labor claim that they produce industrial harmony. It is an overlooked additional basis upon which the alp has ceased to be relevant.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I find it very suspicious that Arbib resigns for an ex-NSW Premier known for his total control of the factions. Surely nobody can doubt that Arbib who by all accounts was on the rise in the Federal Labour Party was tapped on the shoulder by higher powers to make way for Carr. The fact that Smith and Co. never had a chance at the job is telling of backroom power deals.
great theory.
It would be solid if we could identify the incentive offered to Arbib to get him to resign


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Swan is now grasping at straws in his attack on the mining magnates. There is about 10% truth mixed in with a lot of bs and a huge amount of desperate politics.

He says that he is proud of the labor party ties to the unions and that the mining magnates have powers that everyday Australians don't (really? You don't say?). He says that the liberal party is 'singing for their supper' when it comes to big business.

I wonder how many people will see the irony and falsity of his comments:

- labor have long relied on union advertising to support them.
- union advertising far exceeds any other political advertising outside the major parties
- his union member constituents are far greater represented in political advertising than professional middle class Australians or business persons are
- now that there is some private political advertising against labor they are crying foul!

Oh the irony.
I don't know about Palmer but I'd have more sympathy/empathy for fortescue if it had ever paid any tax


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I've made them.
Industrial disputes since the ALP came to power have increased. That is a fact which contradicts the long term labor claim that they produce industrial harmony. It is an overlooked additional basis upon which the alp has ceased to be relevant.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

They have risen, but that is from a base of close to zero which is almost certainly above the long term average. In fact, the average industrial disputes under labor are lower than under the coalition on the graph you posted.

Perhaps you will be proven correct in the long run. But it's not a claim you can make now.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
The labor party says that under it there will less industrial disputation. It was at near zero. It is no longer at near zero. The claim is false. It really is that simple.
That is the end of this debate because the forum rules are in danger of being breached.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The three biggest ironies (untruths) about swan's outbursts:

1. BHP and rio were behind the anti mining tax campaign. Not Palmer, Forrest and Rinehart.
2. None of Palmer, Forrest or Rinehart were invited to the discussions on the revised mining tax.
3. Unions backing labor were the original non political advertisers. Don't remember Swan complaining about their influence on politics.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Very interesting comments on Defence Minister Smith by Maj. Gen. Cantwell (Rt) http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ointed-by-generals-attack-20120311-1us76.html

The circling of the wagons yet again by Labour to protect a minister. This is perhaps a reason why Gillard had to look outside for a Foreign Minister. Smith and Co. just not being up to the job. Now if Gilard was a person of integrity and this government had a half way decent record of managing its policy delivery I could rejoice that incompetence is being recognised. But as none of those previous statements is true and the fact that Gillard chose the head of one of the most corrupt governments in recent times as Foreign Minister I just hang my head. Now if Abbot weren't so unelectable I would look forward eagerly to the next election.

Has Australian ever been so poorly represented before. Those 6 figure salries must have been getting paid in penuts because surely these are the biggest set of monkeys ever to fill the houses of Parliment.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Let us be absolutely clear about it: Gina Rinehart, Andrew Forrest and Clive Palmer are truly wonderful human beings and any criticism of them is motivated purely by The Politics Of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare.
The truth of this statement is shown by the fact that all three are obscenely rich. If it were not for this irrefutable evidence of virtue it might be possible to see them as thugs, bullies and raving ratbags, but their wealth redeems all.
They are utterly above censure, especially by socialistic peasants such as Treasurer Wayne Swan, whose mewling diatribes are no more than The Politics of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare directed against those whose well-polished Gucci footwear he is not fit to lick. Indeed, Swan's essay in The Monthly denouncing the Holy Trinity as a threat to democracy is not just subversive but almost blasphemous: just ask Tony Abbott as he leads his choristers (Gerard, Janet, Piers, Miranda, Andrew, Alan, Ray, old uncle Paul Kelly and all) in an unfortunately forgotten verse of the grand old hymn, All Things Bright and Beautiful:
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them high and lowly,
He ordered their estate."
So that proves it.
But what makes Swan's outburst not just another instance of The Politics of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare but almost an act of treason is the fact that Rinehart, Forrest and Palmer (praised be their names) are not just billionaires, but mining billionaires - the gallant, selfless entrepreneurs who saved the nation during the Global Financial Crisis. Well, didn't they?
Well no, actually; according to Treasury figures during the nine months of the GFC, mining contributed just 0.1 per cent of growth to the economy; agriculture and manufacturing each contributed three times as much. And the miners sacked more people than any other sector: if all employers had shed jobs at the same rate unemployment would have ended up at 9.7 per cent, not 5.4 per cent. What actually saved the economy was Kevin Rudd's now reviled stimulus package, which kept Australia's economy in the black as the rest of the world slid into the red.
But the good news is that the miners continued to make profits. Sure, most of them went overseas, but we mustn't be parochial. And this is where we come back to the true altruism, wonder and beauty of Gina, Twiggy and Clive, as we may dare to call them, because they are actually our own people - they are Australians. And that means that when they rape and pillage, devastate and plunder our resources the profits stay here - apart from those that they spend on luxury imports, or overseas holidays, or other minor trinkets to reward their selfless efforts as they continue to be the driving force of our economy. Well, aren't they?
Well no, actually: mining employs less than 2 per cent of the work force compared to 3 per cent in agriculture and 9 per cent each in manufacturing and building; by far the largest employer is the services sector. And mining in 2010 contributed less than 5 per cent to Australia's Gross Domestic Product; even back in 1900 it was worth 10 per cent. Not really such a big player at all.
What the mining industry is really good at is making profits for itself: in 2010 mining profits totalled 33.4 per cent, compared to just 6.5 per cent for manufacturing. Of course, to do so much as raise one's eyebrows at these figures is to indulge in The Politics of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare.
And it should not be forgotten that riches bring their own problems. As one letter writer to the Sydney Morning Herald explained to bemused readers a few years ago, the reason the rich need more money than the poor is that they have greater expenses. Indeed: very few of the poor face the costs associated with maintaining ocean going yachts, private Lear jets, holiday houses on the French Riviera, and the other necessities of life associated with the likes of Rinehart, Forrest and Palmer.
So fortunately an understanding government has come to their aid, and, reasonably enough, the struggling miners are right up there at the front of the queue; to deny them their rightful position would be no more than The Politics of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare. The total value of the subsidies they receive is hard to quantify, but it can be said that in 2009-10 export grants, the diesel fuel rebate, apprentice subsidies and a few other bits and pieces ran out at over $1.1 billion. This is more than $200 million more than manufacturing, which you will recall employs far more people for far less profit, and is regularly lambasted for demanding protection, received in the same period.
But the miners give it all back in tax; I mean, they're always whingeing about taxes and Tony Abbott says he'll repeal the great big new Resources Rent Tax, so they must be paying heaps. Well, mustn't they?
Well no, actually. The miners get a tax break just about every time they breathe. All exploration, all development and operation of sites, transport, environmental measures including rehabilitation, 125 per cent on research and development, fuel tax credits and plenty more, probably including the cost of their anti-government advertising, are deductions. Twiggy Forrest, the fourth richest person in Australia and the 173rd richest person in the world, say he has not yet paid any tax at all on his mining interests; but he plans to this year, the cheque is practically in the mail – unless, of course, his accountants can find a way out.
And in any case, he contributes to charity: why, he has found jobs for quite a lot of the Aborigines whose land he has appropriated for mining. And Palmer donates heaps to the Liberal and National parties, and even Rinehart, the richest of them all, might be a bit mean with her kids but spends a fortune on lawyers and has even bought a slice of the Channel Ten and Fairfax media empires - now that's showing real concern for the needy.
So let's have no more of The Politics of Envy and Old-fashioned Class Warfare; let's all get up to date and be truly Aspirational. And let's start by eating the rich. There's an Aspiration worth having.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Seems like a typical balanced abc article to me. Funny thing was as I was reading it I was thinking 'I bet this is from the drum'. And people try to say the abc doesn't swing to the left.
 
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