Melbourne Rebels 2024

[Rebel man]

It's probably also worth pointing out that the Tahs gave RA the keys under the guise of the centralisation program, not because they'd gone into VA. It's apples and oranges, for many, many reasons.

End of the day it’s a poor decision to take on the debt.

They may not have the money to save the Rebels and that bridge will be crossed when the decision is made. They may never have had the money irregardless of helping the Tahs and going well over budget.

But for a governing body in such a poor shape to absorb all of one clubs debts is a poor choice.

Should they forgive the 1m dollar loan to the Brumbies. Should they assist the Force or Reds with their debts?

Also could the Tahs have survived without you all assure me they could. So then why?

Obviously the implications for not helping the Rebels are also vastly different. As much as Waugh tries to say it won’t impact the pathways that is undeniably wrong. It will have a catastrophic effect on the pathways. Can we afford to lose a market that is consistently producing Wallabies? What impact will that have on the Wallabies and the revenue that generates?

It’s easy to sit back and say cut them when you have no understanding of the game down here. It’s easy to say the pathways won’t be affected, when I played juniors well before the rebels I personally know a lot who gave the game up to play TAC cup. Even former state representative who now just play local footy. Is this something we want to return to? Now with the added threat of league that has more than tripled in size in the last 20 years.

Can RA afford the drop off in participation that will result? Will this drop off in participation be off set with an increase in NSW now the Tahs are debt free.

It’s easy to say but the wallabies were better with 3 teams but the world has moved on since then

It also jeopardises one of the only positive things that have happened in rugby as of late the Rebels shield that launched in 21 as a 4 school comp and has now doubled to 8. With the real potential to be 10 teams next year.

 

[Fergo]

Can we get a match thread going?

 

[LeCheese]

It’s easy to sit back and say cut them when you have no understanding of the game down here. It’s easy to say the pathways won’t be affected, when I played juniors well before the rebels I personally know a lot who gave the game up to play TAC cup. Even former state representative who now just play local footy. Is this something we want to return to? Now with the added threat of league that has more than tripled in size in the last 20 years.

I actually don't think anyone in this thread has suggested cutting them, nor has anyone celebrated the Rebels (and their fans) are in. It fucking sucks, and it's pretty abhorrent that it's gotten to this point - especially as the Rebels were only just beginning to experience the products of their pathways.

The disagreements have stemmed from who's at fault which, ultimately, means sweet fuck all. As Reg suggested a few pages back, it's probably time to invoke a few forum rules, report the facts as facts, put a pin in the blame game, and get excited that the Rebels at least have a season to play out. Here's hoping they have a blinder.

 

[Rebel man]

I actually don't think anyone in this thread has suggested cutting them, nor has anyone celebrated the Rebels (and their fans) are in. It fucking sucks, and it's pretty abhorrent that it's gotten to this point - especially as the Rebels were only just beginning to experience the products of their pathways.

The disagreements have stemmed from who's at fault which, ultimately, means sweet fuck all. As Reg suggested a few pages back, it's probably time to invoke a few forum rules, report the facts as facts, put a pin in the blame game, and get excited that the Rebels at least have a season to play out. Here's hoping they have a blinder.

A lot are very open to the idea of cutting them, there is always a push to reduce the sides even before this. I don’t think those who are pushing the we were best with three sides are proposing that we cut the reds and Tahs but I could be wrong on that front.

The Rebels maybe the side RA can’t afford but Melbourne is the market they can’t afford to lose and while they may try and say it will have no impact on the pathways they will either live together or die together.

 

[TSR]

End of the day it’s a poor decision to take on the debt.

They may not have the money to save the Rebels and that bridge will be crossed when the decision is made. They may never have had the money irregardless of helping the Tahs and going well over budget.

But for a governing body in such a poor shape to absorb all of one clubs debts is a poor choice.

Should they forgive the 1m dollar loan to the Brumbies. Should they assist the Force or Reds with their debts?

Also could the Tahs have survived without you all assure me they could. So then why?

Obviously the implications for not helping the Rebels are also vastly different. As much as Waugh tries to say it won’t impact the pathways that is undeniably wrong. It will have a catastrophic effect on the pathways. Can we afford to lose a market that is consistently producing Wallabies? What impact will that have on the Wallabies and the revenue that generates?

It’s easy to sit back and say cut them when you have no understanding of the game down here. It’s easy to say the pathways won’t be affected, when I played juniors well before the rebels I personally know a lot who gave the game up to play TAC cup. Even former state representative who now just play local footy. Is this something we want to return to? Now with the added threat of league that has more than tripled in size in the last 20 years.

Can RA afford the drop off in participation that will result? Will this drop off in participation be off set with an increase in NSW now the Tahs are debt free.

It’s easy to say but the wallabies were better with 3 teams but the world has moved on since then

It also jeopardises one of the only positive things that have happened in rugby as of late the Rebels shield that launched in 21 as a 4 school comp and has now doubled to 8. With the real potential to be 10 teams next year.

I understand you are deeply upset. But I don’t understand why you are convinced the RA wants to shut the Rebels down. I would be surprised if Phil Waugh didn’t agree with a whole bunch of the reasons you are citing for why it shouldn’t happen and I haven’t personally seen anything from him to say otherwise.

It may be inevitable and so may happen anyway, but I haven’t seen anything to say they want to do it.

 

[Rebel man]

I understand you are deeply upset. But I don’t understand why you are convinced the RA wants to shut the Rebels down. I would be surprised if Phil Waugh didn’t agree with a whole bunch of the reasons you are citing for why it shouldn’t happen and I haven’t personally seen anything from him to say otherwise.

It may be inevitable and so may happen anyway, but I haven’t seen anything to say they want to do it.

He said on the ABC with Quinton Hull that he didn’t think it would affect the pathways. That comes across as arrogant and misinformed.

 

[TSR]

He said on the ABC with Quinton Hull that he didn’t think it would affect the pathways. That comes across as arrogant and misinformed.

Surely you realise these guys say what they need to say in the press at times.

Of course he is going to claim it wouldn’t hurt the pathways. To say otherwise would be stupid.

 

[Rebel man]

Surely you realise these guys say what they need to say in the press at times.

Of course he is going to claim it wouldn’t hurt the pathways. To say otherwise would be stupid.

He could be honest and not take the public for fools.

He has been saying repeatedly that he wants to connect with the community. He could just say that they are wanting to meet with the people running the pathways and work out the best way forward. Instead of making false claim

 

[Rebel man]

Said this for years, I think the Rebels should see if the MCC are open to doing a deal with them.

They always tell their members (roughly 105k) and waiting list candidates (roughly 250k) what they have on, the sports they support. What events they have open to you. They even offer waiting list candidates admission to low drawing events.

Rugby Union and the MCC well both seen as posh and private school. So it would fit together. The rebels already wear the colours of the MCC.

It doesn’t even need to be a big financial commitment from the MCC. But if we just got access to the 350k email address they have indirectly by them emailing the members and informing them that they could come along to a Rebels game. It would be a great outcome. It’s probably too late now.

I sat in the MCC for the Bledisloe last year and it was packed, it shows me that there is an appetite for Union within the MCC membership. Obviously it’s not the answer to our problems right now but it’s something I strongly believe the club should have attempted from the outset

 

[TSR]

He could be honest and not take the public for fools.

He has been saying repeatedly that he wants to connect with the community. He could just say that they are wanting to meet with the people running the pathways and work out the best way forward. Instead of making false claim

Sure - but I don’t really think what he said is a massive issue in this instance and surely the odd comment like that isn’t the source of your angst.

In any case, that still doesn’t cover my original question. What is the benefit to RA to close the Rebels down (aside from not having to fork out $20m)? And why are you convinced that is what they want to do?

If your beef is just that their accumulated mismanagement means they don’t have the ability to bail the Rebels out than fair enough I guess. Completely get that. But you seem to think they are openly whiteanting the Rebels.

Sorry - I’m not meaning to needle you when you’re down. I do get this is devasting. For what it’s worth I think you’ll find most of us are very sympathetic and the vast majority don’t want the Rebels gone.

 

[Rebel man]

Sure - but I don’t really think what he said is a massive issue in this instance and surely the odd comment like that isn’t the source of your angst.

In any case, that still doesn’t cover my original question. What is the benefit to RA to close the Rebels down (aside from not having to fork out $20m)? And why are you convinced that is what they want to do?

If your beef is just that their accumulated mismanagement means they don’t have the ability to bail the Rebels out than fair enough I guess. Completely get that. But you seem to think they are openly whiteanting the Rebels.

Sorry - I’m not meaning to needle you’re down. I do get this is devasting. For what it’s worth I think you’ll find most of us are very sympathetic and the vast majority don’t want the Rebels gone.

100% it is the fault of the failure of RA since the game turned professional. They have run the game into the ground. The issue of underfunding, why are all sides underfunded? Because of RA and their failures.

RA didn’t set out to destroy the Rebels but they are the ones who have destroyed the game here. It’s all well and good to point the finger at the Rebels, yet RA carries a reported 30m of debt. If the Rebels board are to be hung out to dry. Herbert joined the board in 2020 and Waugh in 2018. These people are part of the problem.

When I brought up the suggestion of looking at someone outside like a Brendon Gale type (I hate Richmond but they were saddled with massive debt hadn’t won a final in 15 odd years members had jumped off and he rebuilt the club he made good on his promise of eradicating the debt, reaching 100k membership and winning 3 flags within 10 years.) I was laughed at because the AFL replaced Gill with Andrew Dillion. The difference being, the performance. You have a organisation running as well as the AFL clearly the biggest winter code in the country, they look for external candidates but choose to promote from within. That’s fine because the performance justifies them sticking with their man.

When he made those statements Richmond were further away from contending for a premiership than the Wallabies currently are of contending for a World Cup


Rugby Australia promoting from within when they have achieved what exactly? Declining crowds, declining TV revenue, declining participation declining sponsoand most importantly declining performance. The only thing Rugby Australia knows how to grow is debt. I’d sooner support an outsider with a proven track record as a great sports administrator than another member of the RA boys club.

There is always undeniably a bias towards NSW and it doesn’t serve the game at all in Australia.

If anyone needs to go it’s the RA administration

There is a certain arrogance within the sport, I do not know any other sport so obsessed with cutting teams. Every time the Wallabies lose they start talking about going back to 4 teams

End of the day, sport is a business if we don’t get the administration right it doesn’t matter who plays or who coaches.

 

[Steve_Grey]

Realistically $12+ million in debt - the directors went in with their eyes open [so that debt can be written off], and the stadium debt may be written off, but the ATO isn't going away.

I am not a Rebels supporter, but I don't want to see them go - if they do go, it is edge of the precipice time for Rugby in Australia. But - that debt needs to be serviced, and with annual franchise running costs of $5 million it is going to take some financial juggling act [as RA is technically broke].

I am of the view Rugby in Australia needs more teams not fewer, with more academies [to allow more talent to be spotted and nurtured] and more games to create more TV / Streaming Viewer opportunities. I am not convinced that is in a Super Rugby or SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) format, but that is for another Forum.

Ulitmately, the players [and coaches] are going to have to take a short to medium term pay-cut [or play/coach overseas] - the current market [in Australia] can't afford them.

 

[SouthernX]

Surely you realise these guys say what they need to say in the press at times.

Of course he is going to claim it wouldn’t hurt the pathways. To say otherwise would be stupid.

I don’t trust Phil, they can say something to the press but the smart money is when you are able to read between the lines.

saw a headline the other day “for our wallabies to be successful - we need our super rugby teams to be successful”

Stephen Holies who’s ingrained in that ROT in NSW being one of those “Sydney Centirc” media types has been banging on for awhile now about going back to 4 teams for the better of the game.

They won’t have any guilt or remorse if rebels folded because the other provinces will just snap up all the great talent that Victoria produces and the rebels have developed

 

[Dctarget]

It does beg the question, what is the line for debt that’s too much?

we know that $5 million for the Waratahs is possible to support.

we know that $12 million for the Rebels is too much.

so were the Rebels nearly there? Is the limit 11.8? Or is the limit closer to 5?

 

[PhilClinton]

Is Taniela Tupou’s deal mostly guaranteed by RA? As their highest paid okay, if the Rebels fold after this year, surely he will be the first one lining up with the unpaid creditors wanting his 2025 contract paid out. I can’t see another Super Rugby franchise paying him the same value.

 

[SouthernX]

Is Taniela Tupou’s deal mostly guaranteed by RA? As their highest paid okay, if the Rebels fold after this year, surely he will be the first one lining up with the unpaid creditors wanting his 2025 contract paid out. I can’t see another Super Rugby franchise paying him the same value.

as I recall it’s a one year contract?

 

[Fergo]

It does beg the question, what is the line for debt that’s too much?

we know that $5 million for the Waratahs is possible to support.

we know that $12 million for the Rebels is too much.

so were the Rebels nearly there? Is the limit 11.8? Or is the limit closer to 5?

The is no press suggesting there is a life support from a private investor, the VIC Government or RA. If there was we would all know about it as someone at RA likes conveniently leaking the headlines. I think we all do our bit by turning up to games and showing our support because the rest we can’t control. The auditors will determine the Rebel’s fate. As disappointing as it is they have pulled together the best team in their short history and I personally will miss my walks with my dogs to watch them train during the week. My wife and I, and sometimes my kids jump on a plane for their away games so we can have a weekend away. We plan our trips back to NZ around the games so I can catch up with my old team mates and family. Life won’t be the same if they are dropped. Let’s just enjoy it while we can.

 

[PhilClinton]

as I recall it’s a one year contract?

Unless something has changed it was a 2 year deal when he signed it

 

[Strewthcobber]

It does beg the question, what is the line for debt that’s too much?

we know that $5 million for the Waratahs is possible to support.

we know that $12 million for the Rebels is too much.

so were the Rebels nearly there? Is the limit 11.8? Or is the limit closer to 5?

The Tahs have $24m of assets (at least they did in 2022 - if their public accounts are real). RA's balance sheet will be better off after absorbing the total equity.

The Rebels don't have assets, RA's balance sheet can't absorb the negative equity

 

[Dctarget]

The Tahs have $24m of assets (at least they did in 2022 - if their public accounts are real). RA's balance sheet will be better off after absorbing the total equity.

The Rebels don't have assets, RA's balance sheet can't absorb the negative equity

That’s impressive, do they own property?