Who else has done any winning since Waratahs 2014?
Cup Final the year after.
His time has come and gone, and rightly so. You call him selfish What about Pocock? Unfathomably selfish.
Folau? Outrageously so. There are plenty more
If you think Cheika going solves all the woes you have an axe to grind with him beyond reasoning
Froggy
John Solomon (38)
I may agree with some of the comments re Cheika, but the idea that these guys had the best parts of their career pinched from them is way over the top IMO.
I mean, these are guys who had a 27% winning record in Super rugby, compared to which their Wallaby record under Cheika of 43% is absolutely stunning.
So who pinched the best of their careers, the Super coaches? Their junior coaches who didn't equip them with enough skills? Possibly their parents who weren't able to produce enough natural ability in their genetics. Look, as I said, I think Cheika had well and truly passed his 'use by' date, but the 23 guys in the team have to share a big part of the responsibility, the coach can't throw the passes, make the tackles or clean out the rucks.
I mean, these are guys who had a 27% winning record in Super rugby, compared to which their Wallaby record under Cheika of 43% is absolutely stunning.
So who pinched the best of their careers, the Super coaches? Their junior coaches who didn't equip them with enough skills? Possibly their parents who weren't able to produce enough natural ability in their genetics. Look, as I said, I think Cheika had well and truly passed his 'use by' date, but the 23 guys in the team have to share a big part of the responsibility, the coach can't throw the passes, make the tackles or clean out the rucks.
Derpus
George Gregan (70)
Yeah, as someone mentioned above. Great three year coach.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
Do you have the dataset or a link to get an easy copy? I was curious to do the same but look at it year by year compared to the year by year Wallabies win/loss ratio. What is very apparent is that for whatever reason Cheika was drawing his player pool from some rather poorly performing Super Rugby teams which mirrors my hunch from watching games over the last couple of decades.
Whilst I agree you can critque Cheika on many things, what I am struggling with a little is people casting singular blame when I think there many elements to our current situation and this myopic discussion is ignoring the fact that there are other issues beyond just the head coaches game plan.
Circling back to earlier conversations about players going abroad and changing the Giteau Law, it would be interesting to map the number of Australian players competing in overseas comps to see what impact this could potentially be having on the Super Rugby franchises. I think some people are a little dismissive of the impact. There may be nothing there or it could be telling. Either way it'd be interesting.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
Lorenzo, I hear the passion in your posts for the Wallabies to be successful, but I feel like you have a very specific axe to grind with Cheika. I'd be curious if you have ever met Cheika, spent time with him, worked with him? because if you are just someone looking in from the outside I'm not sure some of your assertions are fair with a rather limited snapshot.
I will say that for many players (who have been under a number of well known coaches), they have expressed that Cheika was the best coach they have had. You can take that for what you want, but I think there is a much more balanced view to be taken of a passionate coach who undeniably had his flaws.
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
Been thinking, why was Cheika so irate?
He loves the competition for selection.
And they announce the team as late as possible.
So Castle asks for some players not playing in the match.
Cheika wants the whole 31 to think they are in the frame for selection for match day 23.
Then he is told he needs to provide dinner guests.
So that unbalances everything.
Hardest job he has is telling a player he is not in the 23.
Castle forces this early, to get dinner guests.
Hence Cheika mental snap.
Jagman
Trevor Allan (34)
I put the data together myself going back through the super rugby history according to wikipedia. I made a slight mistake, 1999 should be 56% not 58%.
Here are the year by year % excluding sunwolves and finals.
1996 - 66.7
97 - 48.1
98 - 51.9
99 - 56.0
2000 - 66.7
01 - 59.3
02 - 70.4
03 - 51.9
04 - 55.6
05 - 53.8
06 - 45.9
07 - 37.5
08 - 50.0
09 - 53.8
2010 - 57.5
11 - 41.0
12 - 35.0
13 - 48.7
14 - 50.0
15 - 37.5
16 - 28.2
17 - 13.6
18 - 35.5
19 - 32.3
Up the Guts
Steve Williams (59)
I don’t really have any strong views about the argument either way (except it would have been preferable to keep it out of public) but this is a good point. Getting told you’re dropped or didn’t make the cut is terrible. Nor can imagine it being a great experience for the coach.
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
I think we have only heard 1 side of the story, and I think this might have been why Cheika had issues.
He would have had a time, (session) planned to announce the team. Raelene asking for players early would upset that.
Just the HB theory. But something set him off. And all the press makes Raelene so reasonable in her request and Cheika the unreasonable one.
50% in 2014 and Tahs won. How did the rest go? Global Warming??
So 1 guy is still the problem and burning him is the solution. WTF UP
Lorenzo
Colin Windon (37)
Then why not send the whole squad as was originally planned? Surely that would have obviated the need for a heart wrenching unplanned selection discussion? Alternatively, why not ask for 4 volunteers? Or nominate 4 players, one of which is clearly a 23 player, so as not to give anything away?
There's numerous options that a reasonable person might consider before they have a meltdown over it. I know we like to interpret his in-patient-at-mental-hospital behaviour as "passion" but c'mon now, this is ridiculous.
It was 4 days before the match, FFS. Are we to believe this outfit, with the performances we've seen, is going to experience a fatal disruption to its incredibly finely tuned (lol) preparation by spending 2 hours chatting over mineral water at the embassy?
You are tripping over yourself to find reason behind his apparent behaviour but the most likely explanation is that it's just another example of the man-child immaturity that we have seen with our very own eyes in response to perfectly reasonable press conference questions.
Lorenzo
Colin Windon (37)
Notably, this is the Cheika thread, so the specific axe I grind in this thread will be about Cheika, yes.
I haven't met him, or probably even met anyone who has met him. But I've no doubt he is a perfectly affable chap. Probably lots of fun to be around. I'm conscious that part of his broad appeal is his ocker blokeyness, too. Hes probably great to play for, provided your remuneration isnt materially based on team success.
I'm sure most of the players love him. But...that doesnt really mean much to me, because across all the sports i follow, either religiously or casually, ive probably heard or read a thousand times that the players love playing for a failed coach that is close to getting the bullet or just got it. And thats probably becuase like in any other walk of life, the people that are good to work with arent always achieving the best results for key stakeholders. Ive worked with guys that by any fair measure were fuckin arseholes (cheat on wife, claim dodgy expenses, whatever) but were an absolute howl to be around at work and in the pub after work. Some of those guys were producing to the expected standard at work and some weren't. I mean, sometimes you love working for/playing for a shit boss/coach cos he leaves you the fuck alone. Maybe you like him because he helped you personally at the expense of the organisation? Kurtley Beale came out in support. I mean, no shit he would. Cheika saved his career. Has that helped the wallabies? Not really.
I haven't at all enjoyed the things that he has said on publicly (like, in press conferences etc) nor have I enjoyed the way he has said them. I've found him arrogant, dismissive, and occasionally rude. And that's typically a privilege reserved for coaches that are succeeding. It always seemed very odd to me that he showed so little humility, given that he couldn't get the boat out of the marina. I felt like there was the implication of a grand plan that mere mortals couldnt see but would carry us to the promised land. Apparantly that plan was to bosh it up i to a brick wall defence for 80min.
Should I not form my view of him based on what ive actually seen him say and do?
His final presser really miffed me, tbh. From shaming the reporter that asked about his plans (perfectly reasonable question in the circumstances and an odd reaction from someone that claims such a thick skin) to his admission that he was only interested in winning his way, I thought it was a poor continuation of the shit attitude that more forgiving types tend to explain away as passion.
I don't want him deported or anything lol, i just have a dim view of him.
gel
Ken Catchpole (46)
Blake
Ted Fahey (11)
Would be huge if the wallabies can get Rennie as the replacement as per what the current chat is, no coach has changed the game more.
He won 2 super rugby titles with a bang average chiefs team based on 2 principles that he built the whole team around
1. Never attack a set defensive line outside the opposite 22
2. 1st & 2nd phase counter attack is where you score the majority of your points.
The All Blacks then copied this blueprint for what would be their most dominant period of the professional era. Then other teams followed
Then teams started to counter the counter attack rugby, by playing the right wing as a second fullback to add more cover defence. We saw in NZ this with the likes of b Smith and Dagg playing on the wing.
All teams like the idea of counter attack rugby, but he was the guy who made it the primary focus, the guy who said to what practicing at training today? Same thing we practice everyday - counter attack rugby.
Would also make a good attacking/backs coach
Now Jamie Joseph as head coach, Rennie as the backs coach and Thorn as the forwards coach. And well well well wallabies you might need to get that trophy cabinet out of storage.
He won 2 super rugby titles with a bang average chiefs team based on 2 principles that he built the whole team around
1. Never attack a set defensive line outside the opposite 22
2. 1st & 2nd phase counter attack is where you score the majority of your points.
The All Blacks then copied this blueprint for what would be their most dominant period of the professional era. Then other teams followed
Then teams started to counter the counter attack rugby, by playing the right wing as a second fullback to add more cover defence. We saw in NZ this with the likes of b Smith and Dagg playing on the wing.
All teams like the idea of counter attack rugby, but he was the guy who made it the primary focus, the guy who said to what practicing at training today? Same thing we practice everyday - counter attack rugby.
Would also make a good attacking/backs coach
Now Jamie Joseph as head coach, Rennie as the backs coach and Thorn as the forwards coach. And well well well wallabies you might need to get that trophy cabinet out of storage.
Adam84
Nick Farr-Jones (63)
I actually don’t mind Michael Cheika as a person, I like his passion and personality and think he would be a great bloke to have a beer with.
But, I don’t like him as the coach of the Wallabies, for the reasons i like him as a person and more, i dont like him as the coach of the Wallabies.
No personal vendettas or lynchings required, just a bloke who was out of his depth in a role and overstayed his welcome. At a personal level i feel sorry for him, but as an objective assessment of his performance as Wallabies coach, i don’t feel sorry for him at all.
But, I don’t like him as the coach of the Wallabies, for the reasons i like him as a person and more, i dont like him as the coach of the Wallabies.
No personal vendettas or lynchings required, just a bloke who was out of his depth in a role and overstayed his welcome. At a personal level i feel sorry for him, but as an objective assessment of his performance as Wallabies coach, i don’t feel sorry for him at all.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
Look everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just think sometimes it's worth taking a second to reflect on what you really know and what you are saying about someone. I just feel some of the discussion has been rather focused on making assertions on his character without really even knowing him or seeing him operate beyond those small snapshots.
I mean you seems to even equate Cheika to someone who might be the type of individual to cheat on his wife but would be good to have a beer with and postulate that players have only said he was a coach they loved because he let them get away with things. I just think this characterisation is a bit much.
I'll be clear, some players have said he was the best coach they have had (not just the one they loved) and no it wasn't just Beale. I just thought it was worth having some balance.
Is Cheika flawed, absolutely, but no more or less than many people. Was he ultimately successful as Wallabies coach, no. Did I find his approach to post match press conferences frustrating at times as a fan, for sure. Do I think it is the right thing that he is gone now, absolutely. All that said, I also think he did some real good (2015 RWC for example) and had some successes that people seem quick to sweep away now without acknowledging the context of some broader challenges.
I just compare the discourse around Chieka and Australia to Schmidt and Ireland and it stands in such stark contrast, when really Ireland underperformed by so much more and had so many similar issues in the end - stubbornly sticking to a failed gameplan, selecting underperforming players, blaming the referees, a coach who has been criticised as a control freak. Heck, Schmidt is still not wholly owning the failure, eluding to the cancelled pool games as giving those teams (BZ etc..) the advantage. Yet, the way the Irish seem to be able to discuss the situation with a degree of respect and were still able to celebrate some of their parting players just leaves me a little sad about where some of our discussion has sunk to.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
I don't think it is an if, more a when. They are basically telling people internally he has the position.
I'm curious what Thorn has done to qualify as a good forwards coach? I'd take Laurie Fisher over Thorn any day of the year. TBH I'd take a lot of people over Thorn at the moment.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
This is a very pertinent observation and probably should be discussed more than it is.
Gnostic here has often observed and argued the matter of how few Wallabies appear to improve their B grade skills levels _under any HC_ and over long periods of Test play.
That is, essentially, they appear uncoachable, immune to direct guidance and seemingly lacking the humility and/or motivation to develop as needed by the evolving standards of other Test teams and the changing competitive environment as a whole. (I believe there is some solid evidence for this thesis, just, for example, look how little Folau, Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) etc improved their core skills and obvious skill defects.)
If so, contrast the performance of Japan at the RWC. Not many 'stars' in that team. Evidently every single member of the team quite obviously has shown willing to be subject to excellent standards of technical coaching in multiple dimensions, eg, catch and pass both sides, defensive technique and positioning, ensemble play, co-ordinated pod work at the breakdown, team work off the ball, etc.
Lorenzo
Colin Windon (37)
No, I didn't do any of those things. I said that there are numerous reasons for having enjoyed (loved, even) working with or under someone and that those feelings can occur in an environment where that person has not acheived what they are paid to achieve. To be more specific - i don't believe there's a standard correlation between coaches that people love playing for and coaches that are successful.
And to be as clear, i'll say that my response to that is 'so what?' I don't care. It doesn't tell me anything, other than that the players who say that had a good time. Good for them.
Was he getting 1.2m a year to make friends with the playing group? We may have overpaid.
And you should probably therefore ask yourself this: why has the reaction been different? Is it because wallaby fans are innately assholes?
Or is it because Schmidt has by most measures been immensely successful (a full 23 percentage points better than Kidney, 2/5 against the ABs, 4 time 6N winner, climbed to 2nd in the world, routinely in the discussion about the 4 best teams)? Maybe the Irish fans acknowledge that they have had a pretty amazing run under Schmidt, even if they haven't won the RWC?
I dare say that we'd be far more tolerant of cheika's.....quirks.....if he'd had that kind of run. For 73% he could be a member of ISIS for all I care.