New Zealand vs Argentina, Nov 14, 2020

[waiopehu oldboy]

NZ drop from second to third in the WR (World Rugby) rankings (England now second), Argentina up to eighth from tenth (Japan now tenth, Wales ninth by 0.46).

1. South Africa 94.20
2. England 88.42
3. New Zealand 88.17
4. France 84.59 (assuming cancelled match v Fiji doesn't impact the rankings)
5. Ireland 84.57
6. Australia 83.86
7. Scotland 82.28
8. Argentina 80.31
9. Wales 79.75
10. Japan 79.29

 

[KiwiM]

Well the ABs certainly got an absolute lesson in test match rugby.

It reminded me a lot of the 2019 RWC semi - you could tell early on the ABs were in big trouble. Says a lot about the current AB coaching team - same game plan - same flaws - going nowhere.

Argentina were wonderful. Low error rate, physically dominant and a terrific kicking game. That's a great recipe for success in test match rugby. They showed what sport is all about. Matera is amazing and Kremer hugely effective too (even if his discipline was a bit off). Perhaps the best game i've seen Sanchez play.

The ABs are an absolute mess and this coaching staff looks awful.

The AB culture has been lauded about for ages but that is completely gone now - stupid penalties every week now - no real signs of leadership to change tactics or get in the refs ear.

The AB forward pack - where to begin - the coach said all the right things when he picked the squad (physical players who create their own momentum) but the team and the selection are doing the opposite.

This obsession with starting Ardie at 8 is failing horrendously - he just has no physical impact at test level as an 8. They would be much better suited to start Sotutu and bring Ardie off the bench but I believe they are worried about Ardie bolting overseas so just auto-pick him. Frizell is a myth at this level - he tries hard but just has no impact. If Akira doesn't start at 6 next test it's an absolute joke. Tuipulotu should be benched for Vaai - Tuipulotu has turned back into the Paper Tiger - he is just playing so passive.

Jordie is not the answer at 14 - to be honest i'm not sure who is at the moment - Rieko perhaps but he's nowhere near his 2017 form - Jordan perhaps but that's another 15 playing wing and with his concussion issues it might be best to leave him until 2021 - Reece's form has dropped off a cliff. Frustrating to watch a player like Rayasi absolutely carve up the Mitre 10 Cup and the ABs meanwhile looking average in the outside backs.

There seems to be no answers at 12 - to me PUJ is the best 13 in NZ. 12-ALB 13-PUJ I think could be a worth a look. I'd actually like to see Jordie play 12 - he shone at 12 in the NZ U20s and has looked really good when he has played 12 in the rare instances for the Canes.

It's over for Foster. Nothing is going to change until he is gone.

 

[Pfitzy]

Ardie is one of the few forwards making yards in contact. I don't see how you can start with that as the issue when half your forward pack are passengers.

 

[KiwiM]

Ardie is one of the few forwards making yards in contact. I don't see how you can start with that as the issue when half your forward pack are passengers.

Not on Saturday he didn't. One half-decent run I remember with under 10 minutes to go - that's not going to cut it.

Add to that defensively he's not big enough for an 8 - he gets run over.

Against a big physical team like Argentina or England he's a liability as a starter.

 

[Dctarget]

Amazing as well that you don't know who your wingers are, you have the most incredible depth there.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Ardie is one of the few forwards making yards in contact. I don't see how you can start with that as the issue when half your forward pack are passengers.

The problem here is that the rugby field is measured using SI units and he is therefore making meaningless distance.

 

[MarkJ]

Mal’s tenure was more like the first half of Hanson’s, blessed with generational talent that didn’t need coaching.

Mal also had assistant coaches like Neil Henry and Michael Hagan who were former head coaches themselves and I suspect handled most of the tactical stuff

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Ofa, PU-J & Kirifi are being sent home.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/tr...feat-to-argentina/64UO6ZM7YQ36766DWDXKXFWKZM/

 

[Up the Guts]

$13 for a straight out win on the Argies , which before the game most would have considered a little on the conservative side.

Would have been spewing if you had Argies at 13+

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Wasn't it great to see Dane Coles get penalised for his bullshit on the weekend? He's a great footballer but I wish he'd get that crap out of his game and hey if he doesn't more territory and points for his opposition.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

OMG, KiwiM's post up there, its like it was transcribed verbatim from my brain except it has syntactical coherence. Totally agree.

It reminded me a lot of the 2019 RWC semi - you could tell early on the ABs were in big trouble

It was horribly reminiscent. Had that impending dread feeling. After 30 mins it was "um, AB'S havent actually even fired a shot yet. They dont even have any ammo do they? I'm starting to feel a bit sick".

The AB forward pack - where to begin - the coach said all the right things when he picked the squad (physical players who create their own momentum) but the team and the selection are doing the opposite.

Oh shit thats right. Was it Plumtree who came out straight away and said we're going to pick physical specimens or something?

This obsession with starting Ardie at 8 is failing horrendously - he just has no physical impact at test level as an 8. They would be much better suited to start Sotutu and bring Ardie off the bench but I believe they are worried about Ardie bolting overseas so just auto-pick him.

Absolutely. Contracted obligation. Rennie would have benched him by now for fuckign sure. The 5 metre runs & crazyhorse leg pumps get the crowd going but dont mean jackshit in general play when he's getting his dwarf arse run the fuck over

Tuipulotu should be benched for Vaai - Tuipulotu has turned back into the Paper Tiger - he is just playing so passive.

Somehow the massive cnut is actually depowering the scrum. His maul defense too. He literally just doesnt seem to know where to go unless someone tells him. Compare that to Guzzler Retallick who just goes right through the fucking middle and its up to the other forwards to follow his lead.

Can you picture Pat T doing this?

 

[Pfitzy]

Somehow the massive cnut is actually depowering the scrum. His maul defense too. He literally just doesnt seem to know where to go unless someone tells him.

Someone on another forum was saying that Whitelock is on the TH side at the moment? TBH I haven't noticed.

 

[Namerican]

Not on Saturday he didn't. One half-decent run I remember with under 10 minutes to go - that's not going to cut it.

Add to that defensively he's not big enough for an 8 - he gets run over.

Against a big physical team like Argentina or England he's a liability as a starter.

Agreed, though it is not so much a knock on Savea as it is a reflection of how good he is that they feel the need to play two 7s at once. Same issue that the Wallabies had with Hooper/Pocock. You have two absolutely world class players at the same position and it is a position where you don't need to sub off the starter. So what do you do? Just pick one and not let the other play on the national team? Or try to make it work with both playing at the same time? They are trying the latter, but I don't think it works terribly well.

To me the ABs problem is a lack of ascendancy in the forwards in loose play. Cane is dominant on defense, Ardie is great with the ball, but nobody is an all out beast on all sides of the ball. And as mentioned Cane/Ardie are really both 7s. They aren't getting world class all around play from any forward at the moment and it makes it hard for Mounga and everyone else to show their skill. Which big forward is going to rampage out there? They don't have that. They have missed Retallick dearly for a long time now. If I were the ABs I would persist with Akira Ioane and Laumape as they need more go forward. But the main flaw is just that they don't, for whatever reason, have those types of forwards right now.

Look at the 2015 forwards vs. the ones that played Argentina and keep in mind that Whitelock/Coles aren't as good these days:

Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (capt), Sam Cane, Victor Vito, Jerome Kaino, Liam Messam, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Wyatt Crockett, Joe Moody, Dane Coles, Keven Mealamu, Codie Taylor.

 

[zer0]

I think it's less a case of not having them and more a case of not selecting them. Ioane, Sotutu, and Grace are exactly that. Vaa'i by the looks of it too. Even Papali'i would provide a similar degree of defence as Cane but with more go-forward. Though I think Cane is the least of the concerns with the loosies. As a player, anyway. Captaincy on the other hand.....

Indeed, take the AB's starting pack from Argentina, line them up against the Blues pack, and I'd back the Blues to beat them because MacDonald and Coventry don't fluff around. Neither do Robertson and Ryan at the Crusaders, for that matter.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'm astonished that Papali'i hasn't been given a run yet. His SRAo form was excellent. And Lachlan Boshier can't even get picked in the squad!

 

[KiwiM]

Papali'i got 12 minutes off the bench in Sydney.

As great as Ardie is in terms of highlights - there's serious question marks over his effectiveness against physical packs at test level. He started at 7 vs England in the RWC semi and offered nothing.

 

[boyo]

Goodbye Argentina.

 

[boyo]

The RG defence was immense.

They were tackling machines.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Papali'i got 12 minutes off the bench in Sydney.

As great as Ardie is in terms of highlights - there's serious question marks over his effectiveness against physical packs at test level. He started at 7 vs England in the RWC semi and offered nothing.

Wow, I didn't notice him out there.

 

[PaarlBok]

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Its not afrikaans.