Next stop - the Ashes

[barbarian]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Ricky really. His field placings are often way too attacking or way too defensive. He seems to be chasing the game all the time, rather than being like Brearley, Taylor or Chappell (I.M) would say: "being a couple of overs ahead of the play". He basically seems to chuck the rock to one of the quicks and says: "work some magic". Rob put it best, the bowlers are having to put in long spells and its partly to do with his captaincy.

My principal issues with Rick are that he doesn't seem that bright at times and he's a sook. He gobs off far too much for an international captain IMHO. He's still a terrific batsman, but needs to drop down the order now.

He's not the biggest problem, however, Andrew Hilditch is. For so many years, we've had a brilliant selection panel, who have brought guys in at the right time, taken a punt occasionally and generally just got things right. Unfortunately, I think they've now lost some of that courage to make a bold move at the selection table. We've need to rebuild the batting line up for a couple of seasons and the selectors have been afraid to do it. With Greg Chappell coming in, there is some hope.

Ponting struggles setting fields because at the moment our bowlers struggle to maintain any sort of consistency. How are you supposed to set a field to Mitchell Johnson- one ball will be a great inswinger, the next will be a wide full toss, the next one will be 4 byes down the leg side, then back to line and length. Did you see him in the last innings of this test? Abysmal. When the pressure is on he folds, just like in the last Ashes. Hauritz is similar. Should Ricky have 5 men around the bat when Hauritz is bowling his flat no-spinners?

Aggressive fields can only work when you can rely on your bowlers to bowl to them. Hilfenhaus and Bollinger are good but they still have a few kinks to iron out.

I think Ponting still suffers from an image that was created years ago. I mean when was the last time he 'gobbed off' about anything? I swear the bloke is on a hiding to nothing on some things. If he gets out and stands his ground for a split second, or says something to an oppostion player he is jumped on for being a bad sport, a whinging loser. But if Steve Waugh did it it would have been just old hard-man Waugh standing up for his country. Ponting hasn't said anything remotely controversial for a long time.

And Rob42, Hussey? Really? The captain needs to be assured of his place in the side. At the moment it would only be Watson, Katich and Ponting in that boat.

 

[Richo]

I agree with Barbarian. Bit rough to knock Punter given what he has to work with. He's no Waugh or Taylor when it comes to tactics, but he also doesn't have the cattle they did (or he did, in his early days). Let's not forget that McGrath and Warne were two of the best bowlers ever to play the game, not just in Australia but anywhere. Adam Gilchrist changed the entire expectation of his position. M. Waugh, Matty Hayden, Justin Langer -- those guys were all fantastic players. I remember watching games when Mark Waugh's average was the lowest among the recognized batsmen. Those were ridiculously good teams.

What we're seeing is a decline in quality, partly out of luck and partly out of poor development at a state and grassroots level and partly from too much cricket breaking down players. Punter might not always make the best choices out on the field, but he's not the reason the Aussies are ranked fifth in the world.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

For me, it's the long history of generally fairly ordinary incidents. Opposition teams know they can get under his skin and he takes the bait all the time. He even got into a verbal with the Indian team on this tour after getting out. One of the first things you learn playing cricket is that sledging is an often used tactic and that the more you respond to it, the less you are concentrating on the game. I know there are a lot of dickheads in the Indian team (their entire bowling attack really), but block 'em out guys.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I agree with Barbarian. Bit rough to knock Punter given what he has to work with. He's no Waugh or Taylor when it comes to tactics, but he also doesn't have the cattle they did (or he did, in his early days). Let's not forget that McGrath and Warne were two of the best bowlers ever to play the game, not just in Australia but anywhere. Adam Gilchrist changed the entire expectation of his position. M. Waugh, Matty Hayden, Justin Langer -- those guys were all fantastic players. I remember watching games when Mark Waugh's average was the lowest among the recognized batsmen. Those were ridiculously good teams.

What we're seeing is a decline in quality, partly out of luck and partly out of poor development at a state and grassroots level and partly from too much cricket breaking down players. Punter might not always make the best choices out on the field, but he's not the reason the Aussies are ranked fifth in the world.

He had exactly the same cattle for a lot of test matches and did pretty well with them. He has lost two Ashes campaigns, has never won in India and lost a home series to South Africa when bowling blokes who were clearly unfit. The one time we did win in the sub-continent, Gilly was captaining for three of the four tests and we won the series.

 

[barbarian]

For me, it's the long history of generally fairly ordinary incidents. Opposition teams know they can get under his skin and he takes the bait all the time. He even got into a verbal with the Indian team on this tour after getting out. One of the first things you learn playing cricket is that sledging is an often used tactic and that the more you respond to it, the less you are concentrating on the game. I know there are a lot of dickheads in the Indian team (their entire bowling attack really), but block 'em out guys.

You can't laud Ian Chappell and Steve Waugh and then come out and bag Ponting for getting in a verbal stoush. That is just the double standard I was talking about. And he didn't 'get in a verbal with the Indian team'. He fired a few remarks back at a player (Khan?) on one occassion.

He had exactly the same cattle for a lot of test matches and did pretty well with them. He has lost two Ashes campaigns, has never won in India and lost a home series to South Africa when bowling blokes who were clearly unfit. The one time we did win in the sub-continent, Gilly was captaining for three of the four tests and we won the series.

That is true until the 06/07 Ashes, after which Warne, McGrath, Langer and Martyn retired (and Gilchrist soonafter). Before that point we had only lost one series under Ponting IIRC- the 05 Ashes. Hardly a poor record. Since then he has lost one series at home (to SA), and now three away by my calculations (to India, India and England). So there is a clear divide in his record in the 'glory days' and the aftermath. I suggest the losses experienced since then are more because of poor player performance and selection than poor captaincy.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

You can't laud Ian Chappell and Steve Waugh and then come out and bag Ponting for getting in a verbal stoush. That is just the double standard I was talking about. And he didn't 'get in a verbal with the Indian team'. He fired a few remarks back at a player (Khan?) on one occassion.



That is true until the 06/07 Ashes, after which Warne, McGrath, Langer and Martyn retired (and Gilchrist soonafter). Before that point we had only lost one series under Ponting IIRC- the 05 Ashes. Hardly a poor record. Since then he has lost one series at home (to SA), and now three away by my calculations (to India, India and England). So there is a clear divide in his record in the 'glory days' and the aftermath. I suggest the losses experienced since then are more because of poor player performance and selection than poor captaincy.

There is a difference between dishing it out and being able to take it back. I'm obviously not in the Australian team, nobody here is, but I get the distinct impression from his general demeanour that he allows opposition players to get to him and responds in an emotional manner. Chappelli and Waugh never did that.

I agree that the quality of players after 06/07 isn't as good, but that's not the whole story. There have been several occasions during the second half of his reign as captain when his tactical decisions have been found wanting. For example, that last day in Cardiff last year when we had the game on toast and yet scarcely bowled his most dangerous bowler in the last session.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/spo...classic-ashes-heartstopper-20091124-jiod.html

Further, in the Ashes last year, he continued to bowl Johnson with the new ball when it's clear that he's having trouble controlling the swing.

Even in this series, his handling of the bowlers has been curious. Anyone catch Warne's comment on Twitter?

http://www.cricinfo.com/india-v-australia-2010/content/story/481328.html

Warnie may be a dickhead at times, but he is a very astute guy when it comes to cricket.

Lastly, in the series against South Africa a couple of summers ago, he bowled both Andrew Symonds and Brett Lee in test matches when they were clearly struggling with injury. I'll accept that in the Melbourne test the selectors were to blame as well, but the situation had carried over from Perth.

 

[barbarian]

I agree that he isn't a fantastic captain, all I am saying is that he is not nearly as bad as some people make out. He displays his emotions a lot more visibly than his predecessors, which is a feature of his captaincy that can be good and bad. He has made a few blunders, but to put the results of tests or series down to his decisions is a bit much IMO. Cricket has always been a game where individual brilliance will beat good tactics more often than not. That has been well proven in Australain cricket in the last 5 or so years.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Fair enough. He's who we've got right now and with the form Clarke's in, who we've for the next little while. I'm more concerned about the batting line up, because without any runs we truly are buggered. How we conspired to lose both tests in India from strong positions baffles me.

 

[Moses]

Apparently Warney apologised, by text. Chances of it being a wrong number?

Hey Ricky you were great last night xoxoxo

 

[barbarian]

Pandaram speaks some sense:

Captaincy not the issue for Australia
JAMIE PANDARAM
October 15, 2010

COMMENT

So, now it's sack Ricky Ponting as captain? Crazy talk. You could not drop Ponting as the skipper unless you were also dropping him from the side. He is the strongest character in the team by far, he cannot be captained by someone else - imagine what that would do to the dynamic of the dressing room? Pakistan know all about it, ask them.

Ponting certainly could not be outed on form, he was Australia's best batsman in India.

And to appoint Michael Clarke now would be unfair, he is struggling with the bat and he does not want the role while Ponting is around. Who else is there, who could order Ponting around, tell him to bugger off while bowling tactics are discussed?
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Nobody in the team is doubting Ponting's leadership credentials - not publicly anyway - so it's essentially a non-issue.

At the heart of the debate are his field settings, more precisely the fields to Nathan Hauritz, and also the team's slide to fifth in the Test rankings.

Wonder what Shane Warne thinks of Hauritz now he's discovered it was the bowler, not Ponting, setting the fields in India. Warne knows the perils of Indian wickets; the great one averaged 43.11 runs per wicket there, compared to his career average of 25.41, so he knows that sometimes, no matter what you try, things don't work.

Did India score their runs in one small section of the field during the two Tests? No, they exploited gaps all over the park. At times 13 fielders would not have been enough.

The problem, as Gary Kirsten highlights today, is Hauritz and the middle-order batting.

And Ponting is being hammered for exactly the quality most important in a captain; supporting his players. Instead of shunning Hauritz, Ponting has repeatedly backed him and advised him, as he should.

It wasn't any ill-conceived plan by Ponting that cost them, it was an inability to bowl to the plan. As much could be seen when Hauritz put up an apologetic hand towards a sombre-looking Ponting after Tendulkar had pummelled him for a second consecutive six on Wednesday.

Ponting makes his errors on the field, no doubt, but that is not why Australia is fifth in the Test rankings. In the last few years, Australia's middle order has wilted in the heat and their bowling attack cannot rip through a tail like their predecessors.

Should he become the first Australian captain to lose three Ashes series, Ponting's own intuition might tell him he's done.

Right now, as at The Oval last year, he's been hit in the mouth.

He will spit out the blood and get on with it.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

And as a counterpoint, Geoff Lawson today. I don't think we are in a position to sack Punter right now, as Clarke isn't in the kind of form that make me confident that he could take on both jobs. If he loses this series, then surely that must be it. As I said earlier, whatever my own feelings about Ricky as captain, they pale in comparison to the problems with our middle order. Are the selectors going to be brave enough to end a bloke's career?

http://www.foxsports.com.au/cricket...-down-as-captain/story-fn2mcu3x-1225938981841

Former Test paceman Geoff Lawson has urged Australia selectors to dump Ricky Ponting as captain before the Ashes.

As Ricky Ponting flew into Sydney last night in the wake of the two-Test whitewash in India, Lawson called for deputy Michael Clarke to lead the Aussies into action against England at the Gabba from November 25.

Lawson said Ponting, 35, had now lost five series, and relieving him of the captaincy would allow him to focus more on his batting.

"I mean he's now lost five series, it may be time to say, 'Look mate, we've got Michael Clarke ready to go with a nice fresh young mind. He can be the captain and you focus on your batting and try to restore yourself to the level we know you're capable'," Lawson said.

What do you make of Lawson's comments? Should Ponting keep the captaincy? Email your thoughts to blogs@foxsports.com.au to have your say and follow the discussion at the bottom of this page.

Now a respected commentator, Lawson told ABC Radio such a move had done wonders for India and Sachin Tendulkar's career.

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"Ricky's still batting reasonably - he got two scores of 70 in (the last) Test match," Lawson said. "The difference is that Tendulkar got a couple of hundred and then backed it up with a 50-odd not out, and obviously he can focus on those big scores (without the burden of being skipper).

"You've got to look at the way Ponting is batting and think, 'Mentally, he can't concentrate for long enough'."

Lawson's comments come after Shane Warne publicly criticised Ponting for field placements in Australia's seven-wicket loss to India in Bangalore.

On Twitter, Warne was savage in his assessment of Ponting's field placements for spinner Nathan Hauritz as India chased victory.

Both Warne and Ponting declared they had settled any differences and the spin great offered to help revitalise Hauritz's career in the lead-up to the Ashes.

After revealing he and Warne had cleared the air, Ponting declared he was the man to take the fight to England.

"Absolutely, I've got no doubt about that at all," he said.

One person who leapt to Ponting's defence was first-choice keeper Brad Haddin, who made a successful return from elbow surgery for NSW in this week's Sheffield Shield clash in Adelaide.

"Ricky Ponting has been a tremendous leader for a long, long time and I see no reason why we need to change anything," Haddin said.

Topline Australia quick Brett Lee said the three successive Test losses would rule out any complacency that might have crept into the Australia rooms.

"The thing I can say is complacency won't be setting in now because the shoe is on the other foot," Lee said.

"To think we've lost three Tests back to back is not the greatest preparation, but we've got a great squad and guys are putting their hand up to get opportunities - blokes at state level are putting their hand up, so we'll see what happens."

Lee, who will return for NSW in their one-day clash with Western Australia on Sunday, said competition for Test spots was a good thing.

 

[Aussie D]

I think the coach has avoided a lot of criticism as well. The standard of Australian fielding since Ponting's ascension to the captaincy has fallen dramatically. During the Border / Taylor / Waugh days where our fielding was bordering on brilliant most of the time. These days players are missing simple catches and not hitting the stumps for run outs nearly as often as they were.

 

[Moses]

Ponting certainly could not be outed on form, he was Australia's best batsman in India.

If scoring fewer runs than Watson at a lower average and making no hundreds makes you a better batsman, no wonder we're losing.
Is it that hard for professional journalists to add 4 numbers together?

Super Rugby Watson 271 @ 67.75
RT Ponting 224 @ 56
TD Paine† 183 @ 45.75
MJ North 141 @ 35.25
SM Katich 110 @ 27.5
MEK Hussey 99 @ 24.75
BW Hilfenhaus 42 @ 21
NM Hauritz 56 @ 18.66
MG Johnson 61 @ 15.25
MJ Clarke 35 @ 8.75
DE Bollinger 5 @ 5
PR George 2 @ 1

Nobody in the team is doubting Ponting's leadership credentials - not publicly anyway - so it's essentially a non-issue.
...
Wonder what Shane Warne thinks of Hauritz now he's discovered it was the bowler, not Ponting, setting the fields in India.

This revelation is disturbing for many reasons. Why is Ponting not setting the fields as his team is in the process of losing a test? Even if it is true, why is Ponting telling the press that Hauritz is the one responsible for the defensive fields. As captain, he is responsible for the gameplan. If he wants to empower his bowlers that's great, but at the end of the day it's his cock on the block.

Publically blaming a junior bowler for neglecting a task that was Pontings responsibility to start with = time to doubt his leadership credentials.

 

[Raptor]

If scoring fewer runs than Watson at a lower average and making no hundreds makes you a better batsman, no wonder we're losing.
Is it that hard for professional journalists to add 4 numbers together?

Super Rugby Watson 271 @ 67.75
RT Ponting 224 @ 56
TD Paine† 183 @ 45.75
MJ North 141 @ 35.25
SM Katich 110 @ 27.5
MEK Hussey 99 @ 24.75
BW Hilfenhaus 42 @ 21
NM Hauritz 56 @ 18.66
MG Johnson 61 @ 15.25
MJ Clarke 35 @ 8.75
DE Bollinger 5 @ 5
PR George 2 @ 1

This revelation is disturbing for many reasons. Why is Ponting not setting the fields as his team is in the process of losing a test? Even if it is true, why is Ponting telling the press that Hauritz is the one responsible for the defensive fields. As captain, he is responsible for the gameplan. If he wants to empower his bowlers that's great, but at the end of the day it's his cock on the block.

Publically blaming a junior bowler for neglecting a task that was Pontings responsibility to start with = time to doubt his leadership credentials.

Hilfenhaus the stand out there. i think it is extremely poor that aus number 4 batsman Clarke averaged the worst in the team other than the two number 11's who only played one game.

 

[Richo]

Losing the captaincy did help Tendulkar focus on batting, but I don't know that Punter is made of the same stuff as the Little Master. My guess would be he'd just retire.

 

[Moses]

Hilfenhaus the stand out there. i think it is extremely poor that aus number 4 batsman Clarke averaged the worst in the team other than the two number 11's who only played one game.

Hilfy had two not out's, which happens batting at 10.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Chappeli has had his say this morning

http://www.foxsports.com.au/cricket...than-steve-waugh/story-fn2mcu3x-1225939703204

Ian's always been very anti-Waugh and very pro-Ricky and it's something I've never understood. If anything, I would have thought that Waugh reminded him most of himself. He didn't make a hugely convincing case against Stephen.

 

[DPK]

Cos Chappell is a bloody grouch?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

He is, shall we say, trenchant? He's also a bloody good student of the game. My only real problem is that he dwells too much on the whole "in my day..." stuff.

 

[Raptor]

Hilfy had two not out's, which happens batting at 10.

just a joke dont take it to heart