• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Northern Hemishpere Rugby 2013

Status
Not open for further replies.

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Or lack thereof.

Scotland could have 3 or 4 pro teams with a fairly reasonable increase in funds to be honest.
Currently we have 61 players on our books (I know we are going through yet another rebuilding season so have extra players but still), thats 10 more than the weegies.
Given that a third side would be a more developmental side the wages would be less and squad would be reduced due to lack of international call-ups.

Its more that nobody watches pro rugby in Scotland due to either playing the sport rather than watching, living to far away from grounds or like most of the country they dont care about rugby at all.
Being from Perthshire you either loved the game and were in the minority or didnt even know it existed.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Would love a third side. But the issue, as always is:

Is there enough support in the North, wherever a Caledonian would be based.

or

Would the people of the Borders turn up and Support a Reivers side REGARDLESS of where they play?

If the answer for both of these questions is no, we simply can't have another side, regardless of the financial cost of starting a team.

Still, I don't mind the idea. If we had a development side as well, Edinburgh's recruitment wouldn't be... such an issue. Hell, I'd be happy for them to chase guys like McKibbon and Lachie Mitchell as well.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Scotland could have 3 or 4 pro teams with a fairly reasonable increase in funds to be honest.
Currently we have 61 players on our books (I know we are going through yet another rebuilding season so have extra players but still), thats 10 more than the weegies.
Given that a third side would be a more developmental side the wages would be less and squad would be reduced due to lack of international call-ups.

Its more that nobody watches pro rugby in Scotland due to either playing the sport rather than watching, living to far away from grounds or like most of the country they dont care about rugby at all.
Being from Perthshire you either loved the game and were in the minority or didnt even know it existed.

The extra 1 or 2 more teams would do wonders for Scottish rugby. Ireland are blessed that we had a history 4 provinces that people could identify. We have 3 strong teams in Munster, Leinster and Ulster. Connacht aren't going to be winning anything soon but they are an essential part of our system.

Guys like Mike McCarty, Kieran Marmion, Robbie Henshaw, Gavin Duffy, Fionn Carr and many more would have been lost to Irish rugby without Connacht. Yes they rely heavily on imports. But to me it's better to have more Irish players playing each week, than to remove foreign players and condense the number of starting places available to 45 instead of 60.

Sadly Scottish rugby did both, limited the number of players and brought in foreign imports.

It's a long road back for Scottish rugby but if the SRU are brave it's achievable.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Would love a third side. But the issue, as always is:

Is there enough support in the North, wherever a Caledonian would be based.

or

Would the people of the Borders turn up and Support a Reivers side REGARDLESS of where they play?

If the answer for both of these questions is no, we simply can't have another side, regardless of the financial cost of starting a team.

Still, I don't mind the idea. If we had a development side as well, Edinburgh's recruitment wouldn't be. such an issue. Hell, I'd be happy for them to chase guys like McKibbon and Lachie Mitchell as well.

I think at this point the SRU just need to bite the bullet and set up another 1 or 2 sides. They need to take a long term view and the simple fact is long term having a maximum of 2 players starting in each position every week is not going to produce a strong Scotland team.

Setting up new teams is very difficult and I don't believe they should be judged until at least 15-20 years. Munster didn't become the best supported club side in the world over night.

It was through successive generations giving their all to the cause that they slowly built the support and became an integral part of the community. It's something that's built up over a very long time to the point where the lines between the club and the community become blurred and there's a feeling that one wouldn't exist without the other.

That's not something that short term plans can achieve. 3-5 years is nothing in the history of a community. Players who settle in the area would still be considered the new people. I would set up the teams in the knowledge that for a long time there will be small crowds and poor results. But I'd put a focus on ensuring that there was a core of local players in the squads who were likely to stay in the area once they've retired to help build those bonds.

I'd also talk to people connected with clubs like Munster, Biaritz & Leicester as they're the ones who've got it right in terms of the club belonging to the community. Then I'd look at what the likes of Leinster are doing to emulate that in a modern environment.

What I wouldn't do is follow the Sarries model. I get a feeling that once the money and the success go all that will be left is a soulless husk of a club that will quickly fall apart.

But hey I'm passionate about rugby and I want to see it thrive in all areas and maybe sometimes I gloss over the practicalities. But for me a sustained concerted effort would seem to be a better plan than sporadic short-term costly plans where so much money is wasted on things like consultancy fees, rebranding etc.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
It's nice to see that the various parties in the HEC row seem to be getting on a lot better now. It reminds me of a family around the holidays. In the run up everyone is getting along just fine and most are thinking about what presents to get each other.

But there's always one or 2 greedy members who are more worried about what they're going to receive. Then there's a big blow up on Christmas or St. Stephen's day and people are forced to choose sides. There's tension in the air and no one is sure about the future apart from one thing, that they're never talking to X or Y again. They can go stuff themselves and you don't care who else it effects.

Then New Years' Eve comes around and we all get drunk, sing Auld Lang Syne and we're all the best of friends again. We have deep meaningful discussions about life, the universe and everything. Realise the answer is 42 and sort everything out.

Agreements are signed in good faith and unwritten promises and new year's resolutions are made. As with all resolutions we adopt them in good faith and are determined to keep them. But it never lasts all that long and by March we're back to the way we were before with an uneasy truce.

We're not too sure that 42 is really the answer anymore. We don't know who came up with it, but it certainly wasn't our fault, it must have been the other side. Over time the pressure will build until it's all set to explode the next Christmas.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
The extra 1 or 2 more teams would do wonders for Scottish rugby. Ireland are blessed that we had a history 4 provinces that people could identify. We have 3 strong teams in Munster, Leinster and Ulster. Connacht aren't going to be winning anything soon but they are an essential part of our system.

Guys like Mike McCarty, Kieran Marmion, Robbie Henshaw, Gavin Duffy, Fionn Carr and many more would have been lost to Irish rugby without Connacht. Yes they rely heavily on imports. But to me it's better to have more Irish players playing each week, than to remove foreign players and condense the number of starting places available to 45 instead of 60.

Sadly Scottish rugby did both, limited the number of players and brought in foreign imports.

It's a long road back for Scottish rugby but if the SRU are brave it's achievable.
Sorting out the Murrayfield pitch will be a good place to start this summer.
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
I think at this point the SRU just need to bite the bullet and set up another 1 or 2 sides. They need to take a long term view and the simple fact is long term having a maximum of 2 players starting in each position every week is not going to produce a strong Scotland team.


As Highlander and I have said, there is no real way we could (or deserve to) have a third pro side really.
Rugby is a minority sport in Scotland, if you look at the numbers we have around 40k playing the sport and of this 11k are adult males. This is less than Japan, USA and Italy.
Ireland has 150+k playing and 25+ adult males.
Also we have the added problem of the Borders being a series of very parochial small towns and Caledonia being an area that has a reasonably small population spread all over a relatively large area - a team in either place doesnt really work.

The quality of our domestic league is also very poor, even if we do have the greatest club side in the world in Accies! ;)
Just look at the B&I results over the past few seasons...

I was there when we reduced the number of "pro" teams before and the way that was dealt with led to a fair amount of bridge burning and resentment among clubs/players/coaches. There are many in Scotlands club scene that are very anti the pro sides.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Interesting article about sponsors expressing an interest in sponsoring a team based in Aberdeen.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/26616760

Would be interested to hear what the Scottish posters no here think of the idea.

Personally I've made no secret of the fact that I think Scottish Rugby need to have more than 2 teams and I'd love to see something like this take off.
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
Would be interested to hear what the Scottish posters no here think of the idea.

Personally I've made no secret of the fact that I think Scottish Rugby need to have more than 2 teams and I'd love to see something like this take off.

Aberdeen Asset Management have been a great sponsor of Scottish rugby for a while now - they used to be main sponsor of Edinburgh and are current sponsor of London Scottish.
I understand rugby is getting a bit more of a push in Aberdeen than most cities in Scotland but its still not a rugby town (not many in Scotland are though) and the creation of a pro team there would likely end in the same way as a team based in Perth or the Borders.
We just dont have the player or fan base for pro teams outside the two big cities sadly and even then we are a parochial lot at the best of times.
Aberdeen are currently bottom of the Premiership and will finish last, so no top team involvement next year either.
The best option for Scotland in my opinion is London Scottish, either as a top championship club/Premiership in England if possible (regulations then require English player numbers/youth set-up etc) or as a team in whatever Celtic league set-up is going.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
So the new Heineken Cup will have 4 less teams but cost 35% more to run because we need to appease the PRL wankers who couldn't quite grasp the concept of a tax haven. The extra costs should be taken out of the money they get for taking part.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Should have Been a simple 666 with Hcup and Amlin cup equivalents qualifying, along with the proviso that Unions can have no more than 7 (for French and English) or 3 teams competing.

Sent from my LG-P713 using Tapatalk
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Should have Been a simple 666 with Hcup and Amlin cup equivalents qualifying, along with the proviso that Unions can have no more than 7 (for French and English) or 3 teams competing.

Sent from my LG-P713 using Tapatalk

Not sure why the English league should get 6 qualifiers tbh, they're teams are terrible for the most part and rarely feature in the most watched games on TV.

Its ridiculous that they've moved the HQ from Dublin, it was based there because of the hugely favourable Irish tax laws not some Celtic conspiracy that the PRL would have you believe. Changing the seeding system is ridiculous as well. The cynic in me feels that the competition will keep changing until the English clubs win on a regular basis.
 

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
The Barbarians have named 14 players of the squad for the test against England.

1.
2.
3. Carl Hayman/John Afoa
4. Ali Williams
5.
6. Julien Bonnaire
7. Steffon Armitage
8.
9. Jimmy Cowan
10. Francois Trinh-Duc
11. Drew Mitchell/Hosea Gear
12. Matt Giteau
13. Rene Ranger/Aurelien Rougerie
14. Sitiveni Sivivatu
15. James O'Connor

I wonder who else they might name? I havent followed any of the domestic European club comps recently (only the Heineken Cup), so it would be interesting to see who else they pick.

Maybe Parra if PSA keep ignoring him too? Fritz Lee at 8, or Toby Flood on the bench?
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Irish international players are not allowed to play for the Barbarians so it won't be any of them.

Massive game in Landsdown road on Saturday as Leinster host Munster in a top of the table, eight point swing, interprovincial thriller. Joe Schmidt's selection of so few Munster players, vindicated by the championship win it has to be said, will add some serious bite as there are plenty of Munster lads with a serious point to prove. Donnacha Ryan looks to be out for Munster which will remove that contest with the revelatory Devin 'high tower' Toner but I hope Jordi Murphy is selected at 7 against Tommy O'Donnell who is one player who has every right to feel aggrieved at being dropped from the Ireland squad. Should be one of the northern hemisphere club games of the season.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top