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November Internationals not involving Australia

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Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
I have a very bad feeling about this game! The Italians could easily ship a hundred.

Not sure how it will go Hawko, seems the ABs are staying with 2nd string team, so Ities may just feel there a bit of wind up the tale and maybe hold score down a bit. Mind you back to a full size field , so if the AB forwards can dominate, you could be right and it get a little messy.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Ruck Involvements – Ireland V All Blacks - Chicago

For those who missed this game it's certainly worth watching.
Ireland 40:29 All Blacks a very fair result.

Can't imagine that the ABs set out to lose this game.
Ireland played with conviction and passion and a winning game plan (and kept to it for 80 minutes).
Ireland's Tight 5 was relentless. Line speed was impressive. Their aerial work fantastic - especially on restarts. The efforts and agility of their big men most impressive. Lock, Donnacha Ryan was quicker getting back on his feet after a tackle than most Flankers.
New Zealand's Lineout was poor. Scrums very even (and only 11 for the game).

Referee Mathieu Raynal controlled the game well and was merciless in areas where the ABs push the envelope. Penalties conceded: Ireland 4; ABs 12.


Remember:
1. Early means 1st or 2nd of player’s team AFTER the ball carrier has been tackled and brought to ground.
2. Impact means active engagement: strong physical contact, changed shape of ruck, clean-out, protecting ball etc. (more than hand on someone’s bum or arriving after the hard work has been done). Yes it’s subjective - but as I collect all data at least it’s consistent.
3. Impact DOES NOT equate to Effectiveness. I’ve concluded that coming up with an effectiveness measure is just too hard in the time that I have available – but open to suggestions.

2016-11-09_16-52-24.jpg


2016-11-09_16-52-53.jpg


Ruck Involvements over Time

2016-11-09_16-53-28.jpg


2016-11-09_16-53-48.jpg



Ireland won 95% (78/82) of its rucks; ABs 94% (80/85).

Both teams were standing off Defence Rucks: Ireland 69%; ABs 49%.

Possession and Territory was even over the game.
However, Ireland had 67% Possession & Territory in 1st half and ABs ~64% P&T in 2nd half.


Most Ruck Involvements by Backs

Ireland:
Henshaw - 16 Total (15Attack/1 Defence); Zebo - 11T (8A/3D)

ABs:
Fakitoa - 18T (17A/1D); Maola & Ben Smith - 10T (9A/1D)


Stats continue in post to follow.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
2016-11-09_16-42-57.jpg

Fairly evenly matched workloads in ruck involvements.
Not often do we see the ABs Front Row involvements get matched/bettered by the opposition.

Ireland averaged 2.8 players per Attack Ruck (SR2016 average about 2.5).
Clearly they wanted to negate/match any effort from the ABs.

ABs averaged a very low 2.2 players per Attack Ruck.


2016-11-09_16-43-22.jpg


Ireland stood off a very high 69% of Defence Ruck; choosing to maintain their defensive line.
Ireland averaged only 0.4 players per Defence Ruck (SR2016 average about 2.5)

ABs stood off 49% of Defence Rucks.
ABs averaged 0.6 players per Defence Ruck.


2016-11-09_16-50-12.jpg


In 75% of their Attack Rucks Ireland provided 3 or more players to protect their ball carriers and to respond to the ABs numbers below.


2016-11-09_16-43-53.jpg
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Ireland stood off a very high 60% of Defence Ruck; choosing to maintain their defensive line.
Ireland averaged only 0.4 players per defence Ruck (SR2016 average about 2.5)

ABs stood off 49% of Defence Rucks.
ABs averaged 0.6 players per Defence Ruck.
Amazing as usual ForceFan. Ireland's decision to stand off defensive rucks was a challenge to New Zealand. They were saying Run at us we've got you covered.
 
G

galumay

Guest
The game shows that if the top team is a few % off its best and a challenger plays a few % above their usual standard, then the top team can be beaten.

The gap between NZ and the rest is obviously wider than its ever been, but its still within reach if everything aligns.

I think it also shows the incredible mental strength needed to keep winning endlessly when you are clearly better than all other comers, somewhere sometime the guard drops a smidgen!

I cant imagine a better team than Ireland to be the one to crack the winning streak, its sort of ..... so Irish!
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
England vs South Africa
@ Twickenham
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant Referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Jon Mason (Wales)

England: 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 Courtney Lawes, 4 Joe Launchbury, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Mako Vunipola. Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Dave Attwood, 20 Nathan Hughes, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Jonathan Joseph
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Ireland vs Canada
@ Aviva Stadium
Referee: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
Assistant Referees: Matthew Carley (England), Thomas Charabas (France)
TMO: Tim Hayes (Wales)
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Munster vs Maori All Blacks
@ Thomond Park
Referee: Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
Assistant Referees: Frank Murphy (Ireland), Leo Colgan (Ireland)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


NZ Maori (15-1): Marty McKenzie, Ambrose Curtis, Matt Proctor, Tim Bateman, James Lowe, Otere Black, Billy Guyton, Akira Ioane, Shane Christie, Reed Prinsep, Tom Franklin/Jacob Skeen, Leighton Price, Ben May, Ash Dixon, Kane Hames. Reserves (16-23): Leni Apisai, Chris Eves, Marcel Renata, Whetu Douglas, Kara Pryor, Brad Weber, Ihaia West, Jason Emery.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
Italian rugby is in real strife, their major reasons for being 'compeditive' for the last decade was:
  1. Argentina rugby had a good talent pool but little professional infrastructure.
  2. Italian rugby had a weaker talent pool but a decent professional infrastructure.
  3. Argentina has literally millions of ethnically Italian people and is the second most Italian country in the world.
Castro and Parisse are examples of this model.

Italian rugby is now developing better talent locally, but I think they need to get very deliberate in their foreign signings to get compeditive again - think like Scotland did with Strauss and Nell.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Italian teams and structures are shite though. Nobody develops there.

Sarto and Favaro have been comparatively brilliant playing Glasgow than they were with Zebre and Treviso respectively.

WP Nel in particular just looked like your slightly more mobile than average tighthead at the Cheetahs. His scrummaging went to the next level at Edinburgh.

Strauss was always good enough, but the Springboks produce Strauss' by the truckloads.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
Italian teams and structures are shite though. Nobody develops there.

Sarto and Favaro have been comparatively brilliant playing Glasgow than they were with Zebre and Treviso respectively.

WP Nel in particular just looked like your slightly more mobile than average tighthead at the Cheetahs. His scrummaging went to the next level at Edinburgh.

Strauss was always good enough, but the Springboks produce Strauss' by the truckloads.
You're largely correct, there is something questionable at those Italian teams, particularly because their rosters just aren't that bad. However, the Italian development pathway is more than those 2 teams, there's junior academies/programs and the Championship of Excellence.

WP Nel was pretty good at the Cheetahs, I certainly noticed him. I think you're confusing Edinburgh took him to the next level with 'he matured as most props do mid-career'.

Favaro has always been excellent in national colours but you're correct that he was sub standard domestically.

I think you're just a very proud Scotsman. Edinburgh have been achieving great things lately but you're slightly over exaggerating their impact on these individuals, and I say this with love because you seem like a nice guy around the forums.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
You're largely correct, there is something questionable at those Italian teams, particularly because their rosters just aren't that bad. However, the Italian development pathway is more than those 2 teams, there's junior academies/programs and the Championship of Excellence.

WP Nel was pretty good at the Cheetahs, I certainly noticed him. I think you're confusing Edinburgh took him to the next level with 'he matured as most props do mid-career'.

Favaro has always been excellent in national colours but you're correct that he was sub standard domestically.

I think you're just a very proud Scotsman. Edinburgh have been achieving great things lately but you're slightly over exaggerating their impact on these individuals, and I say this with love because you seem like a nice guy around the forums.

It was more along the lines of: recruiting foreigners to play for Zebre and Treviso will be a lot harder than recruiting them for Glasgow and Edinburgh, because the environments provided are more conducive to allowing players to excel (natural development as opposed to specific development) and retaining players for the required 3 years and beyond.

Nel would have been a Springbok eventually, there's no question of that. I do feel that he's a better player now than he would have been staying in South Africa though, and that's because of the specific focus put into him, whereas he'd have just been the next man in the queue, deservedly so mind you.

Think this sort of gets at what I'm talking about, from the horses mouth: (well, via google translate)

http://www.gazzetta.it/Rugby/10-04-...nte-glasgow-sono-costretto-150184057802.shtml

One of the Celtic calendar Pro12 joke gave him a nice week in Italy. But do not tell Simone Favaro as it was back home. "I just played two games in Italy, returning home is another thing." With his Glasgow Warriors, in fact, last week played Monigo with his former team, Benetton Treviso, while Saturday night is back in action in Moletolo in recovery with Zebras. For which technically it can not be considered an ex, as in Parma had played two years, but for Aironi. "It 's still nice to see so many friends."

PHYSICAL - The best news, beyond the full that have made the champions of Pro12 (81 points scored and 30 conceded, 10 points in the standings and third place), Simone is on a personal level: "At last I know and I can play with continuity. " Due to an unfortunate series of injuries, in fact, in the last two seasons in Treviso he had put together 17 games in all league and cups, while this has already reached 16 (with 3 goals). For this reason, after the World Cup had decided to focus exclusively on the work to be done! To return to play with continuity in the club, also giving up the National and the Six Nations. "I am very happy, I notice that there is trust and respect towards me and I reciprocate with the performance. We are a very competitive package of third lines and interesting, every weekend we play the place and we can not afford to ever relax. I arrived in a team that had a hard core built by five years, with players working together for five years and the same goes for the staff. And I found myself in a group and have been run in a structure already tested. When I arrived I had to think only of putting my ". And when it's all around athlete tested and working, the reflections are also seen in the field: "In the Italian continuing to always change every time you have to start with the basics: it is not a criticism, but the reality of the facts. Here in Glasgow he is working on the details and you can afford it. The internal competition is very high and at the same off we are a nice group of friends all know that to play with the shirt you have to give their best on the pitch. There is a great sense of belonging to the club and they all work the best: I was put in the best position to make the most. "
improvements - Playing in a club that aims to win a championship then allowed to Favaro going to discover an aspect of his game that maybe in the past, to put it mildly, has explored recently: "After two years in which I could not find a physical constant, I can not give me the parameters on the stages of the game in which I could be improved. One thing there is: game much more in attack. Besides, if you're on a team that in certain games ago more than 80% of ownership ... You have to play more with the ball, which, as you know, I do not like too much. I would just like to tackle, the thing I do best. " National Chapter: Six Nations has seen via television, suffering, of course. "We have to find an identity, it is the thing that disappointed me. But we are not a team to 40 points gap with the other. There is a difference to be bridged, through work. Making sure that the clubs become more competitive, they can win more often and build in the players a winning identity. I am positive looking to the future, we pick ourselves up. The next release will be a very important test for all players of the Italian movement ". Next exit which will be represented by the June tour with the new coach Conor O'Shea at the helm of the Azzurri. And Favaro there will be: "If I am called ...".
MY GLASGOW - Glasgow Simone has settled very well: "I live halfway between the center and the field. I was afraid of driving on the left, but in a couple of days you get on. There's a wonderful nature, ever. The climate is harsh, but it is a place to explore, recommend it to everyone. The food? Than we Italians, we have not ... But the base is good, meat and salmon, have different ways of cooking and sometimes I clash with classmates. But I made friends with a couple of Italian restaurateurs and send us the team: and the kids are all happy. " Among the places visited, Loch Ness, but the monster in the lake there or not? "I tried to look for him, I do not think ... But it is a magical place, a fabulous landscape."
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
You're right, I think it can't be exaggerated that Italy is MUCH more of a cultural shock than Scotland to a Westerner.

Though it must be said that France doesn't seem to have trouble attracting foreigners to play there for 3 years - though like you said they have better programs.

It's a real issue for Italy. Perhaps the answer is getting guys that are 16 or 17 so they can play for the Italy U20s and Italy while playing wherever they want when they're older, though truth be told I think that'd just lead to more pillaging of the Pacific region which isn't great for the game.

Sigh, the days Italy could take any Argentinian they wanted was a simper time.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Italy by 7

The matchday 23 is (with Test caps in brackets):

1. Wyatt Crockett (55)
2. Codie Taylor (12)
3. Charlie Faumuina (43)
4. Patrick Tuipulotu (11)
5. Scott Barrett (1)
6. Elliot Dixon (2)
7. Sam Cane - captain (38)
8. Steven Luatua (14)
9. Tawera Kerr-Barlow (24)
10. Aaron Cruden (44)
11. Waisake Naholo (9)
12. Anton Lienert-Brown (6)
13. Malakai Fekitoa (21)
14. Israel Dagg (58)
15. Damian McKenzie (1)

16. Liam Coltman *
17. Joe Moody (21)
18. Ofa Tu'ungafasi (3)
19. Brodie Retallick (57)
20. Matt Todd (6)
21. Aaron Smith (55)
22. Lima Sopoaga (5)
23. Rieko Ioane *
 
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