NRC onwards and upwards

[kiap]

those not affiliated with the top 4, 2 and 1 teams wouldn't be part of the comp

And, by extension, those who want to be part of the comp, will look to join teams that are #1, #2 or, at worst, top 4.

Thereby further ensuring that 66%- 90% of clubs are even more rooted by the sugar daddy clubs.

It's a vicious circle, an amplifying feedback loop.

 

[Quick Hands]

Qld Country has been relatively successful … the Eagles the best NSW team overall - such as that it is (moreso than the Rays, in any case).

It would depend how one judges "success" though.

Have either of these teams resulted in a quantifiable increase in participation and/or support for rugby in rural NSW or Qld?

Or either they just names attached to a randomly assembled group of players who represent nothing much in particular?

Let's look at NSW Country Eagles 2018
Foley - comes from the north shore of Sydney
Kepu - born in Sydney, grew up in NZ, lives in Sydney
Beale - born Blacktown, grew up in Mt Druitt, lives in Sydney
Hanigan - at least he was born in Coonamble
Robertson - grew up in Dubbo
Robinson - born and grew up in Randwick area
Clunies-Ross - born Sydney
Kagiassis - born and grew up in Parramatta
Gibbon - born Lismore grew up Brisbane
Kellaway - Hunters Hill born and bred
Anderson - Sydney boy
Davis - born and bred northern Sydney
Newsome - grew up Glen Innes, school and lives in Sydney
Hill - Eastwood boy
Godwin - WA and plays outside NSW
Armstrong - Walcha
Adams - Auckland
Gordon - inner west of Sydney
Ward - northern beaches
Perry - Canberra
Jones - Brisbane
McCutcheon - Narromine
Kellaway - Hunters Hill (there's two of them)
O'Regan - ?
Staniforth - Canberra
Buchanan - Orange
Swinton -northern beaches
McCauley - Sydney
Latu - born Tonga and grew up in SE Sydney
Paenga-Amosa - born Auckland grew up in Sutherland shire

See what I mean?

 

[Quick Hands]

my main objection is that the pro players are distributed across all of the clubs, and we are only inviting some of the clubs to play on the comp.

So half the Tahs and Reds players, and most of the Brumbies and Rebs + Force, those not affiliated with the top 4, 2 and 1 teams wouldn't be part of the comp

You're assuming a particular model, rather than a concept.

 

[Quick Hands]

It's a vicious circle, an amplifying feedback loop.

Unlike anything else we know of?

 

[kiap]

Unlike anything else we know of?

Rugby union being almost 100% locked into Foxtel is another.

But I digress.

It would depend how one judges "success" though.

Correct.

Have either of these teams resulted in a quantifiable increase in participation and/or support for rugby in rural NSW or Qld?

Given they play home games outside the capitals and pull a modest country-sized crowd, I'd say they do.

Is it massive? Well, no … although I'd say it's doing more for rural rugby than Gordon v Norths.

But, at risk of repeating myself, if another Sydney team works better than this country team (not the case, so far) then so be it.

Or either they just names attached to a randomly assembled group of players who represent nothing much in particular?

Let's look at NSW Country Eagles 2018

… <snip> …

See what I mean?

A big chunk of those names you listed are pro players, naturally.

But if you actually want players who "represent" rather than being contracted in, then be clear with that.

• NSW Country do have a representative team, of course: the Cockatoos. Amateur, obviously.
• It's amateur rugby for the foreseeable future in the bush, man. Dollars only really stretch to 5 cities in Australia having semi-pro (or pro) rugby teams … Okay, it's 6 if you count the Goldie but the Qld Country team doesn't really live there.
• Also, no more poaching players from the outer burbs into the East and Northern Beaches, brother. You've gotta represent!

This seems to be the Hospishute credo: A local club "representing" a local suburb … against another local club from another (far away) local suburb. -- It's the amateur ethos being invoked for a shamateur comp.

And there's the difference with NRC. It's a comp with pro rugby pretensions … but being played by halfway semi-pro teams, and on the cheap.

Choosing between these flawed options, however, I'd go for NRC. To be revised, promoted and marketed better, for sure. But it's a better model.

 

[Silverado]

It would depend how one judges "success" though.

Have either of these teams resulted in a quantifiable increase in participation and/or support for rugby in rural NSW or Qld?

Or either they just names attached to a randomly assembled group of players who represent nothing much in particular?

Let's look at NSW Country Eagles 2018
Foley - comes from the north shore of Sydney
Kepu - born in Sydney, grew up in NZ, lives in Sydney
Beale - born Blacktown, grew up in Mt Druitt, lives in Sydney
Hanigan - at least he was born in Coonamble
Robertson - grew up in Dubbo
Robinson - born and grew up in Randwick area
Clunies-Ross - born Sydney
Kagiassis - born and grew up in Parramatta
Gibbon - born Lismore grew up Brisbane
Kellaway - Hunters Hill born and bred
Anderson - Sydney boy
Davis - born and bred northern Sydney
Newsome - grew up Glen Innes, school and lives in Sydney
Hill - Eastwood boy
Godwin - WA and plays outside NSW
Armstrong - Walcha
Adams - Auckland
Gordon - inner west of Sydney
Ward - northern beaches
Perry - Canberra
Jones - Brisbane
McCutcheon - Narromine
Kellaway - Hunters Hill (there's two of them)
O'Regan - ?
Staniforth - Canberra
Buchanan - Orange
Swinton -northern beaches
McCauley - Sydney
Latu - born Tonga and grew up in SE Sydney
Paenga-Amosa - born Auckland grew up in Sutherland shire

See what I mean?

Kind of, I get your point, but no Kellahers played last year, Swinton and McCauley played for City. I think BPA was in the Qld country team and you’ve left out captain Paddy Ryan And quite a few others Perhaps that’s an older squad?

https://www.centralwesterndaily.com...ingent-for-eagles-2018-assault-on-nrc-photos/

 

[Adam84]

It would depend how one judges "success" though.

Have either of these teams resulted in a quantifiable increase in participation and/or support for rugby in rural NSW or Qld?

Or either they just names attached to a randomly assembled group of players who represent nothing much in particular?

Let's look at NSW Country Eagles 2018
Foley - comes from the north shore of Sydney
Kepu - born in Sydney, grew up in NZ, lives in Sydney
Beale - born Blacktown, grew up in Mt Druitt, lives in Sydney
Hanigan - at least he was born in Coonamble
Robertson - grew up in Dubbo
Robinson - born and grew up in Randwick area
Clunies-Ross - born Sydney
Kagiassis - born and grew up in Parramatta
Gibbon - born Lismore grew up Brisbane
Kellaway - Hunters Hill born and bred
Anderson - Sydney boy
Davis - born and bred northern Sydney
Newsome - grew up Glen Innes, school and lives in Sydney
Hill - Eastwood boy
Godwin - WA and plays outside NSW
Armstrong - Walcha
Adams - Auckland
Gordon - inner west of Sydney
Ward - northern beaches
Perry - Canberra
Jones - Brisbane
McCutcheon - Narromine
Kellaway - Hunters Hill (there's two of them)
O'Regan - ?
Staniforth - Canberra
Buchanan - Orange
Swinton -northern beaches
McCauley - Sydney
Latu - born Tonga and grew up in SE Sydney
Paenga-Amosa - born Auckland grew up in Sutherland shire

See what I mean?

I don’t really understand what you mean. Why must players come from that region to represent that team, is that the definition of success now days? Look at Super Rugby, you have Country Queenslanders playing in NSW, Sydneysiders players in Victoria, Melbourne players in Canberra.

Teams represent a region, they aren’t selection teams drawing players only from that area, although that would be the pathway goal, but opportunity will always dictate otherwise.

 

[Quick Hands]

And there's the difference with NRC. It's a comp with pro rugby pretensions … but being played by halfway semi-pro teams, and on the cheap.

Choosing between these flawed options, however, I'd go for NRC. To be revised, promoted and marketed better, for sure. But it's a better model.

If was going so well, these conversations wouldn't even occur.

It's a better model than what?

There's no better model than the current NRC model? At all? Anywhere? Nothing we can learn about how to structure our professsional, semi-professional and community levels from anywhere else?

Look at pro-rugby in parts of the world where rugby is going well - club based (including were there is an amalgam of clubs at the higher level, but those clubs are separate entities at lower levels) and representing some geographic region or area, i.e. the players reside in areas in which they play so there is the opportunity for them to build community support.

With respect, if there's a failed model it's the current NRC.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don’t really understand what you mean. Why must players come from that region to represent that team, is that the definition of success now days? Look at Super Rugby, you have Country Queenslanders playing in NSW, Sydneysiders players in Victoria, Melbourne players in Canberra.

Teams represent a region, they aren’t selection teams drawing players only from that area, although that would be the pathway goal, but opportunity will always dictate otherwise.

What I mean is that the players have zero connection with the community they represent, they don't even live in the country while they are playing for the team. That's not how you build community support for a team and a code.

Obviously players move around in professional sport, that's not the point. It would be like somebody in the NRL living in Brisbane while they play for Souths, or somebody playing for Toulouse and living in Dublin.

EDIT: or in fact the whole of the South Sydney squad living in Brisbane or the whole of the Toulouse squad living in Dublin.

 

[Quick Hands]

Silverado,
The team which I named, was the one which is currently on the Country Eagles website.

So you're telling me that the website is 12 months out of date?

If so, I'm speechless.

http://nswcountryeagles.com/team/

 

[Quick Hands]

What happens if Gordon don't make the cut?

All their players sit out?

Or do the better ones needing a shot at a Supe contract, see the light, junk Gordon and join Uni?

my main objection is that the pro players are distributed across all of the clubs, and we are only inviting some of the clubs to play on the comp.

So half the Tahs and Reds players, and most of the Brumbies and Rebs + Force, those not affiliated with the top 4, 2 and 1 teams wouldn't be part of the comp

Or you could have a model where teams operate as separate entities at the community level, but combine in the professional/semi-professional level.

So for example if the Northern Rays was still in existance and was still linked with Manly, Warringah, Norths and Gordon then Karmichael Hunt would be eligible to play for that team whether Gordon played first or last.

The powers that be have decided to move away from that model to the current set-up where nobody belongs anywhere, nobody really represents anywhere it's just a randomly selected group of players wearing the same coloured jersey. If the object is to create and encourage community support for teams in particular and the code in general, it's the wrong model and it's why people are questioning it's existance.

EDIT: just to give an example. The traditional top division of Welsh rugby contains the following traditional clubs; Aberavon, Bedwas, Bridgend Ravens, Cardiff, Carmarthen Quins, Cross Keys, Ebbw Vale, Llandovery, Llanelli, Neath, Newport and Pontypridd.

But in professional level competitions these clubs are combined according to geographic regions under the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons. So that the best players from all clubs get the chance to play at the higher level.

It's actually quite straightforward conceptwise, and would actually serve to distribute talent more evenly because players would realise that that would have a better chance at a pathway by playing for Wests or Parramatta as the western geographic region would have a team and the northern and southern regions would also have a team each. I seem to have solved all of both of your complaints in one fell swoop.

Key to map

Clubs in the red area are affiliated to the Scarlets
Clubs in the blue area are affiliated to the Blues
Clubs in the black area are affiliated to the Ospreys
Clubs in the yellow area are affiliated to the Dragons

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Or you could have a model where teams operate as separate entities at the community level, but combine in the professional/semi-professional level.

So for example if the Northern Rays was still in existance and was still linked with Manly, Warringah, Norths and Gordon then Karmichael Hunt would be eligible to play for that team whether Gordon played first or last.

The powers that be have decided to move away from that model to the current set-up where nobody belongs anywhere, nobody really represents anywhere it's just a randomly selected group of players wearing the same coloured jersey. If the object is to create and encourage community support for teams in particular and the code in general, it's the wrong model and it's why people are questioning it's existance.

EDIT: just to give an example. The traditional top division of Welsh rugby contains the following traditional clubs; Aberavon, Bedwas, Bridgend Ravens, Cardiff, Carmarthen Quins, Cross Keys, Ebbw Vale, Llandovery, Llanelli, Neath, Newport and Pontypridd.

But in professional level competitions these clubs are combined according to geographic regions under the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons. So that the best players from all clubs get the chance to play at the higher level.

It's actually quite straightforward conceptwise, and would actually serve to distribute talent more evenly because players would realise that that would have a better chance at a pathway by playing for Wests or Parramatta as the western geographic region would have a team and the northern and southern regions would also have a team each. I seem to have solved all of both of your complaints in one fell swoop.

Key to map

Clubs in the red area are affiliated to the Scarlets
Clubs in the blue area are affiliated to the Blues
Clubs in the black area are affiliated to the Ospreys
Clubs in the yellow area are affiliated to the Dragons

North - Gordon, Norths, Manly, Warringah.
Sydney - Uni, Randwick, Easts and Souths.
West Syd - Harbour, WS and Eastwood.

I don't mind that model as long as you can get everyone to play nice and buy into the concept and approach it with the mindset of selecting the best possible team and not based on quota. Or we could just go the other way and assuming GRR gets up next season allow them to have a team in WS and somewhere either in Qld or otherwise and then run the NRC as a combined championship sans the Wallaby squad members.

A few advantages of this model would be that including Fiji it would be by and large fully professional as most of the teams will involved full time contracted squad in their entirety. Still provide opportunity for emerging talent to compete across 7 Aus based squads. Could look to use smaller more intimate grounds for games. And with much of the expenses already covered by using pre-existing squads you could look to diversify its broadcast options a little more.

 

[kiap]

Or you could have a model where teams operate as separate entities at the community level, but combine in the professional/semi-professional level.

So for example if the Northern Rays was still in existance and was still linked with Manly, Warringah, Norths and Gordon then Karmichael Hunt would be eligible to play for that team whether Gordon played first or last.

So this is a "Club" championship, where the winning club (or clubs) can bring in players from all over their wider catchment region.

• The VRU get 1 "club" invited to the comp, and bring in any local-based players. Let's say that team is the Melbourne RUFC Rising.
• WA get 1 club invite and bring in other Perth players: the Perth-Bayswater Spirit
• ACT get 1 club and bring in other Canberrans … it's the Tuggeranong-Canberra Vikings
• QRU get 2, say, the Reds Heavy-Jeeps (north) and the Bond Uni Tiger-Sharks (south)
• NSW 3: e.g. Norths Bear-Rays (north shute), Sydney Uni Stars (south shute), and West Country Pirates (the rest)

Looks a bit like the NRC …

 

[Adam84]

What I mean is that the players have zero connection with the community they represent, they don't even live in the country while they are playing for the team. That's not how you build community support for a team and a code.

Obviously players move around in professional sport, that's not the point. It would be like somebody in the NRL living in Brisbane while they play for Souths, or somebody playing for Toulouse and living in Dublin.

EDIT: or in fact the whole of the South Sydney squad living in Brisbane or the whole of the Toulouse squad living in Dublin.

I really don’t think it’s the issue it’s made out to be, fans support what the team represents, player connections to the community certainly helps but looking broadly across the globe, it doesn’t seem to be a necessity in the professional era.

Having lived in a regional era and played county rugby, it’s the nature of rural living that people work remotely. I’ve played in rep country rep teams in Queensland where the bulk of the team lived more then 2 hours away.

Is it perfect? Nah certainly not, but I think the Country Eagles have done a pretty good job at rotating the games and engaging the different regional catchments.

 

[kiap]

Clubs in the black area are affiliated to the Ospreys

As an aside, the Ospreys - formerly the Neath-Swansea Ospreys (hence the famous black "Neath" colors) - look like they're going bust.

This season, or perhaps the next, might be their last

 

[The Honey Badger]

Silverado,
The team which I named, was the one which is currently on the Country Eagles website.

So you're telling me that the website is 12 months out of date?

If so, I'm speechless.

http://nswcountryeagles.com/team/

Website is definitely out of date. Think Facebook was the Eagles main media of choice.

https://www.facebook.com/580356832061566/posts/1777682892328948/?sfnsn=mo

 

[Highlander35]

I guess it all depends on what you want the "third tier" to be. Is it a reward for clubs? An olive branch from the establishment to the clubs? An extension of the Super Rugby System? An opportunity for Wallaby players to keep match fit in a Semi-Pro environment? A chance for Super Sides to have a soft trial for players their interested in? To give game time to Super Rugby Bench Warmers? To develop younger players whether attached to squads directly or just part of academies? A long term domestic alternative to Super Rugby that's not just throwing professional players into amateur one city competitions? Some of these can work together, others can't really.

On the Welsh regions: they're a mess; regionalisation has always been a matter of competitiveness and finances rather than a more natural representative system as it was in Ireland and to a lesser extent Scotland, and a number of Clubs, Pontypridd in particular, have never gotten over that, plus with whatever noble "rep local club goals" they may have started has fallen away in the name of ensuring the "best" 3 or 4 options in each position in the country are getting regular rugby.

For my own thoughts, I must admit, in a very general sense (i.e. a LOT of the specifics were wrong) I had roughly preferred the Season 1 NRC model, that is to say: the Northern consortium, the Randwick-Easts consortium, the Sydney Uni rep side and "the rest"/Western Consortium. While the results were poor for most of the sides, I think with better allocation of Wallabies, Waratahs and other "Super Rejects": alongside a bit more backroom and club support, it could have been a successful long term venture.

If you could get something close to that up and running again: say by directly giving whatever the Shute Shield's managing body is 3-5 licenses to a potential 10-12 team competition, and allowing them to set up some of their own rules around player selection and recruitment, that could be a logical launching point for a domestic league. Alongside say, North & South Brisbane sides plus other "rep" sides playing under the Brumbies, Rebels and Force branding. Add in 1 or 2 regional sides and maybe the Drua, and you potentially have a model that works in the long term. Maybe not as commercially viable in the short term, but if you align it correctly you could have the potential for non-Wallabies playing in this competition to play in Japan in the Off Season as well, reducing a bit of that financial pressure.

 

[dru]

Website is definitely out of date. Think Facebook was the Eagles main media of choice.

https://www.facebook.com/580356832061566/posts/1777682892328948/?sfnsn=mo

This is an example of the way that NSW has embraced NRC, and in this environment QH criticism is quite correct. Elsewhere there is some connection between the clubs and the NRC teams, in Qld with a Representative model. A similar thing was tried in Sydney early days in the NRC, but what I saw was the SRU clubs, or at least most of them, seem to actively be antagonistic if not try to destroy it.

That is an uncomfortable negotiation position to be starting from.

I don't mind the idea of a Premier "League of Champions" but it has problems (tbf anything will) and misses some of the function that the NRC provides:

Problem 1: It is unlikely to be a level playing field and there will be lop-sided games.

Function 2: Will it provide an avenue for returning WBs either due to form or injury? Note that any WB in this situation may be aligned with a club that didn't make the cut. And can you imagine the tribal scream when an opposition turns up to an important game loaded with "outsiders"?

Function 3: While the franchises will be able to use the comp to keep an eye on up and coming talent it doesn't necessarily ensure that all talent they want to test get the opportunity. Which leads to my final problem.

Problem 4: (Note that this applies to any "Champion League and should be kept in mind by those proposing a National alternative to pro rugby with a Champions League system for end of season Super Rugby). As a system like this matures, and if it is success full, players with career intentions will quickly note the clubs likely to make the Champions league and over time the Shute Shield (Hospital cup etc) becomes a defacto two tier comp with the "haves" and "have nots"

Much of the above is overcome if it is a interim system which intends weeds out the strongest (performance and commercials) teams to build a new national comp. But will go close to destroying Premier comps as they currently exist.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I keep hearing the NRC is a development comp and a pathway for players to Super.

The pathway seems to be 2 way. Not only a pathway in but also a pathway out.

Exhibit 1, Paddy Ryan. I don't get that.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Jordy Petaia’s performance today was a great example of the benefits of the NRC.

His performances / confidence went through roof post super season last year.

Same too Hamish Stewart, Hoopert, ASY (Angus Scott-Young), Wright & Timu.

In fact that entire QLD Country side is the bedrock of Thornball & the new vision of the Reds.

Grateful.