NRC onwards and upwards

[LearningCurve]

I keep hearing the NRC is a development comp and a pathway for players to Super.

The pathway seems to be 2 way. Not only a pathway in but also a pathway out.

Exhibit 1, Paddy Ryan. I don't get that.

Paddy Ryan was part of the Waratahs for something like 8 seasons so his heading offshore is hardly a surprise. Not sure how that is a negative reflection on the NRC when a veteran player chooses to go for a different experience overseas.

 

[Getwithme]

I don't understand what's so bad about the NRC/need to scrap it? When it was implemented people were calling for longevity to build a program in that part of the season which we so badly needed. With time comes reputation, with reputation comes sponsors. I think it's just about continually building year on year and making sure it's a competition the players want to win.

 

[Adam84]

I keep hearing the NRC is a development comp and a pathway for players to Super.

The pathway seems to be 2 way. Not only a pathway in but also a pathway out.

Exhibit 1, Paddy Ryan. I don't get that.

Please explain how the NRC has provide Paddy Ryan a pathway out?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I don't understand what's so bad about the NRC/need to scrap it? When it was implemented people were calling for longevity to build a program in that part of the season which we so badly needed. With time comes reputation, with reputation comes sponsors. I think it's just about continually building year on year and making sure it's a competition the players want to win.

I actually don't want it scrapped. I'm more thinking of alternatives if those that make the decisions decide to scrap it. I would prefer if it remained and actually got the resourcing and promotion it deserved. The NRC has been massively let down in those regards.

 

[Brumby Runner]

So this is a "Club" championship, where the winning club (or clubs) can bring in players from all over their wider catchment region.

• The VRU get 1 "club" invited to the comp, and bring in any local-based players. Let's say that team is the Melbourne RUFC Rising.
• WA get 1 club invite and bring in other Perth players: the Perth-Bayswater Spirit
• ACT get 1 club and bring in other Canberrans … it's the Tuggeranong-Canberra Vikings
• QRU get 2, say, the Reds Heavy-Jeeps (north) and the Bond Uni Tiger-Sharks (south)
• NSW 3: e.g. Norths Bear-Rays (north shute), Sydney Uni Stars (south shute), and West Country Pirates (the rest)

Looks a bit like the NRC …

Exactly my thoughts too Kiap. Only difference is that the NSW based sides have undermined the NRC in all of it's iterations. I think if he were honest about his criticisms, QH would have to admit that his beef is only about the way the Shute Shield clubs have behaved.

 

[dru]

Exactly my thoughts too Kiap. Only difference is that the NSW based sides have undermined the NRC in all of it's iterations. I think if he were honest about his criticisms, QH would have to admit that his beef is only about the way the Shute Shield clubs have behaved.

I think this is almost right. However the lack of tribalism and "legitimacy" of the NRC in it's own right leaves a comp that is tough to market outside of the rusted on. As it exists, including the minimal marketing, there is plenty to be done for the NRC to stand up. The inter-club thing has a better chance in this regard, IMO.

A better morph of things going forward is to get the SRU integrally involved in the NRC. It is not really something the RA can do for them.

 

[kiap]

I actually don't want it scrapped. I'm more thinking of alternatives if those that make the decisions decide to scrap it. I would prefer if it remained and actually got the resourcing and promotion it deserved. The NRC has been massively let down in those regards.

Agree with that

Exactly my thoughts too Kiap. Only difference is that the NSW based sides have undermined the NRC in all of it's iterations. I think if he were honest about his criticisms, QH would have to admit that his beef is only about the way the Shute Shield clubs have behaved.

Yep.

I can see where QH is coming from, though, in what happened to the Rays losing that local presence. He's a good rugby man and wants to see a side that is his team with a local identity in the comp.

And that's fine by me. How NSW reasonably arrange their teams can be up to them. But it's gotta have genuine backing to work.

I think this is almost right. However the lack of tribalism and "legitimacy" of the NRC in it's own right leaves a comp that is tough to market outside of the rusted on. As it exists, including the minimal marketing, there is plenty to be done for the NRC to stand up. The inter-club thing has a better chance in this regard, IMO.

A better morph of things going forward is to get the SRU integrally involved in the NRC. It is not really something the RA can do for them.

You're right.

It's also a bit of a Catch-22. Significant parts of the SRU remain equivocal at best about any national comp that doesn't directly involve their own particular suburban team. Sectional self-interest.

But it's not so simple for such teams to cut it against near-Super level squads - which have just one team per city for fans to attend.

I actually thought the Rays consortium showed promise. One of my questions to QH was WHY many northern players suddenly got distributed amongst other teams. Infighting, no cash, or what? Yes, I'm aware there's very little money for non-super club players (something that needs to be improved for any national comp to survive) but there seemed more to it, given guys were still playing for other NRC entries.

The Sydney teams weren't competitive. Eventually RA stepped in and had the Waratahs take control, which didn't work in 2018. It needs to be re-tuned again and requires some cash.

Reports of this new national "Club Championship" were suggesting the Brisbane and Sydney comps end slightly earlier in the season (well, Sydney really - Brisbane's season is not quite as long). This needs to happen, and it needs to happen regardless, while the NRC still kicks on.

 

[Lindommer]

.......the NSW based sides have undermined the NRC in all of its iterations. I think if he were honest about his criticisms, QH would have to admit that his beef is only about the way some of the Shute Shield clubs have behaved.

corrected

 

[The Honey Badger]

Please explain how the NRC has provide Paddy Ryan a pathway out?

How the fu#k is it a development comp for fringe and up and coming players, if Paddy Ryan plays and he has finished Soup and headed OS.? I really think the Tahs needed to be looking at potential front row stocks that were going to available to play this year if required.

What was the point of playing Ryan

 

[kiap]

I really think the Tahs needed to be looking at potential front row stocks that were going to available to play this year if required.

It's a fair enough point.

However, I would make two comments.

• Firstly to the "development comp for fringe and up and coming players" idea. The NRC should (and does) play that role. But's it not an U20 comp, nor U23s or U25s … or whatever. It needs wizened, experienced players included as well for the up-and-comers to play off - both with and against. The best non-wallaby players (subject to availabilty due to rest/rotation/injury recovery, etc.) should have a decent representation within the NRC teams.

• One bigger issue I had with the Tahs -- in terms of their players in the NRC -- was that they overwhemingly had the experienced heads in with the Eagles + left the Rays with a lot of fringe players.

Just take a look at the front rowers for the opening NSW derby:

Country:1. T Robertson, 2. Tolu Latu, 3. P. Ryan, 17. S Kepu. -- All test caps including a 90-odd capper on the bench.​

Sydney: 1. M Sandell, 2. D Fitzpatrick, 3. C Betham, 18 S. Vui -- (for sake of brevity I won't list all the benchies)​

The rest of the squads, with the odd exception, didn't look comparatively strong for the Rays either. They were never going to trouble the playoffs.

 

[Adam84]

How the fu#k is it a development comp for fringe and up and coming players, if Paddy Ryan plays and he has finished Soup and headed OS.? I really think the Tahs needed to be looking at potential front row stocks that were going to available to play this year if required.

What was the point of playing Ryan

No need to swear or talk to me like that, your original comment was poorly written and it wasn’t clear what you were getting at. My first question would be, had Paddy Ryan signed an overseas contract before the NRC started or was he still hoping to pick up a position at another team?

Second to this, NSWRU and Waratahs both opted to not overly involve themselves in the NRC from the very start, as opposed to the Reds/Rebels where there is a clear reach down from the Super Rugby teams to suit their interests. Subsequently Country Eagles don’t really care if Paddy Ryan wasn’t playing for the Tahs In 2019, they were focussed on their own results for 2018. There’s been little in terms of resource sharing or assistance from the Waratahs towards the NRC teams, so naturally they’re going to focus on their own interests.

To answer your question, the issue starts with the Waratahs approach to the NRC. Other super rugby teams have used the competition to good effect in terms of development and experience, the Tahs neglect towards the comp is at their own detriment

 

[The Honey Badger]

No need to swear or talk to me like that, your original comment was poorly written and it wasn’t clear what you were getting at. My first question would be, had Paddy Ryan signed an overseas contract before the NRC started or was he still hoping to pick up a position at another team?

Second to this, NSWRU and Waratahs both opted to not overly involve themselves in the NRC from the very start, as opposed to the Reds/Rebels where there is a clear reach down from the Super Rugby teams to suit their interests. Subsequently Country Eagles don’t really care if Paddy Ryan wasn’t playing for the Tahs In 2019, they were focussed on their own results for 2018. There’s been little in terms of resource sharing or assistance from the Waratahs towards the NRC teams, so naturally they’re going to focus on their own interests.

To answer your question, the issue starts with the Waratahs approach to the NRC. Other super rugby teams have used the competition to good effect in terms of development and experience, the Tahs neglect towards the comp is at their own detriment

Settle petal, I wasn't having a go at you.

The system is flawed and needs some better direction. My point is that places in the NRC should not be awarded to anyone not available to play soup.

I agree with Kiap, about the non Wallaby players needing to play and after that the fringe players from Schute and U20 that a pushing for selection to the Tahs.

Not sure what level of engagement the Tahs have with NRC.

Someone parachuted John Folau into the NRC. So there is definitely some involment from above.

 

[Adam84]

Settle petal, I wasn't having a go at you.

The system is flawed and needs some better direction. My point is that places in the NRC should not be awarded to anyone not available to play soup.

I agree with Kiap, about the non Wallaby players needing to play and after that the fringe players from Schute and U20 that a pushing for selection to the Tahs.

Not sure what level of engagement the Tahs have with NRC.

Someone parachuted John Folau into the NRC. So there is definitely some involment from above.

Don’t worry I’m settled, i dont like it when someone swears at me unnecessarily though. I dont know what Paddy Ryans contractural status was, had he signed to play overseas before the NRC or was he still looking for a contract, previously players who have signed to play overseas forgo the NRC so they dont risk injury and their next contract, which makes me suspect he hadn’t yet signed and this frustration aimed at him is ill-informed.

On the development opportunities of the NRC, this seems to be an issue unique to NSW not the wider NRC though, if you’re looking to blame someone then ask why it seems to work for the Queensland, Victorian, Canberra and previously the WA teams, but doesn’t work for NSW.

Waratahs level of engagement prior to 2018 was minimal, they actually lifted their involvement in 2018 but prior to that there was no resource sharing or input from the Waratahs, Waratahs management went with a hands off approach to the NRC and ultimately decided to forgo some of the development opportunities which existed with the tournmanent.

 

[Quick Hands]

So this is a "Club" championship, where the winning club (or clubs) can bring in players from all over their wider catchment region.

• The VRU get 1 "club" invited to the comp, and bring in any local-based players. Let's say that team is the Melbourne RUFC Rising.
• WA get 1 club invite and bring in other Perth players: the Perth-Bayswater Spirit
• ACT get 1 club and bring in other Canberrans … it's the Tuggeranong-Canberra Vikings
• QRU get 2, say, the Reds Heavy-Jeeps (north) and the Bond Uni Tiger-Sharks (south)
• NSW 3: e.g. Norths Bear-Rays (north shute), Sydney Uni Stars (south shute), and West Country Pirates (the rest)

Looks a bit like the NRC …

Because it's not a club championship, it's what the NRC should look like. And if the NRC did like that then this conversation wouldn't be occurring.

The clubs in parts of Sydney, parts of Brisbane/Qld, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth are all directly affiliated with a pro/semi-pro club. Players from the afiliated clubs are brought up into the pro/semi-pro club as needed and return to the community clubs when not required. Subbies and junior clubs within the geographic catchment should be all under the same umbrella, not off to the side in petty kingdoms. It's quite mad that in 2019 district, subbies and junior clubs in the same suburb are affiliated to different bodies.

When I went to the the WRU website a phrase which struck me was Welsh rugby is aligned at all levels

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU35WRUStrategyBookletv8LRE.pdf


Not a statement that could be applied to rugby in NSW or Australia where we have a tangled mess of overlapping and competing bureaucracies jealously guarding their patch

Note the importance placed on having clubs inside the tent as part of the solution, not outside the tent as an imagined problem.

I don't think a 'club championship' is the answer for many of the reasons outlined by dru.

 

[Quick Hands]

North - Gordon, Norths, Manly, Warringah.
Sydney - Uni, Randwick, Easts and Souths.
West Syd - Harbour, WS and Eastwood.

I don't mind that model as long as you can get everyone to play nice and buy into the concept and approach it with the mindset of selecting the best possible team and not based on quota. Or we could just go the other way and assuming GRR gets up next season allow them to have a team in WS and somewhere either in Qld or otherwise and then run the NRC as a combined championship sans the Wallaby squad members.

A few advantages of this model would be that including Fiji it would be by and large fully professional as most of the teams will involved full time contracted squad in their entirety. Still provide opportunity for emerging talent to compete across 7 Aus based squads. Could look to use smaller more intimate grounds for games. And with much of the expenses already covered by using pre-existing squads you could look to diversify its broadcast options a little more.

You get them to play nice by saying that you players don't have access to the pro pathway unless your club buys in.

 

[kiap]

Because it's not a club championship, it's what the NRC should look like. And if the NRC did like that then this conversation wouldn't be occurring.

The clubs in parts of Sydney, parts of Brisbane/Qld, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth are all directly affiliated with a pro/semi-pro club. …

… <snipped for sake of brevity> …​

Note the importance placed on having clubs inside the tent as part of the solution, not outside the tent as an imagined problem.

I don't think a 'club championship' is the answer for many of the reasons outlined by dru.

Well, we might be 90% in agreement then.

Could even be 100%, if I'm reading you correctly. Although I'm sure I could find the odd point of difference somewhere … !

For me, that's an acheivable tweak rather than a massive change - others may differ. It would still come down to being properly backed by those on the ground (and by that I particularly mean in Sydney rather than elsewhere). The plan has to be followed up with good implementation.

And, yeah, I probably don't rate the Wales structure quite so highly. But that can be by the by.

 

[Rebels3]

Because it's not a club championship, it's what the NRC should look like. And if the NRC did like that then this conversation wouldn't be occurring.

The clubs in parts of Sydney, parts of Brisbane/Qld, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth are all directly affiliated with a pro/semi-pro club. Players from the afiliated clubs are brought up into the pro/semi-pro club as needed and return to the community clubs when not required. Subbies and junior clubs within the geographic catchment should be all under the same umbrella, not off to the side in petty kingdoms. It's quite mad that in 2019 district, subbies and junior clubs in the same suburb are affiliated to different bodies.

When I went to the the WRU website a phrase which struck me was Welsh rugby is aligned at all levels

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU35WRUStrategyBookletv8LRE.pdf


Not a statement that could be applied to rugby in NSW or Australia where we have a tangled mess of overlapping and competing bureaucracies jealously guarding their patch

Note the importance placed on having clubs inside the tent as part of the solution, not outside the tent as an imagined problem.

I don't think a 'club championship' is the answer for many of the reasons outlined by dru.

I like the point you are trying to make but any example of welsh rugby, it’s professional and amateur arms and governance should be thrown in the bin. They make Rugby Australia look like a well run organization. The politics and infighting is well documented, they are basically keeping the creditors away through a massive 6 nations cash injection every year and the fact they were in a lucky situation to own the principality stadium, something they managed to get a hold of after owning the land but the government paying for the stadium structure with the ‘99 World Cup in hand.

 

[Quick Hands]

Well, we might be 90% in agreement then.

Could even be 100%, if I'm reading you correctly. Although I'm sure I could find the odd point of difference somewhere … !

For me, that's an acheivable tweak rather than a massive change - others may differ. It would still come down to being properly backed by those on the ground (and by that I particularly mean in Sydney rather than elsewhere). The plan has to be followed up with good implementation.

And, yeah, I probably don't rate the Wales structure quite so highly. But that can be by the by.

You provide carrot and stick to get people on board. The four clubs who banded together to form the Rays (and tipped in $30k each IIRC) were basically sold out by ARU/RA who created the Country Eagles so that recalcitrant clubs who tried to sagotage the whole thing had a place for their players to go - and then rubbed everyone's nose in it to let them play some home games at Coogee Oval. (Country Eagles at Coogee Oval - yes you read it right)

If you want people involved you give them more reasons to say 'yes' than reasons to say 'no'. The implementation (and I use the term loosely) of the NRC has been abysmal. It's allowed those who opposed it to shaft those who were in favour.

Re Wales - think concept not the way it may or may not be being executed.

 

[Quick Hands]

I like the point you are trying to make but any example of welsh rugby, it’s professional and amateur arms and governance should be thrown in the bin. They make Rugby Australia look like a well run organization. The politics and infighting is well documented, they are basically keeping the creditors away through a massive 6 nations cash injection every year and the fact they were in a lucky situation to own the principality stadium, something they managed to get a hold of after owning the land but the government paying for the stadium structure with the ‘99 World Cup in hand.

Nothing makes RA look like a well-run rugby organisation - with the possible exception of Samoa. Although there the people running it are well-organised, perhaps with there own interests in mind though. But I am digressing from the main point.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Well, we might be 90% in agreement then.

Could even be 100%, if I'm reading you correctly. Although I'm sure I could find the odd point of difference somewhere … !

For me, that's an acheivable tweak rather than a massive change - others may differ. It would still come down to being properly backed by those on the ground (and by that I particularly mean in Sydney rather than elsewhere). The plan has to be followed up with good implementation.

And, yeah, I probably don't rate the Wales structure quite so highly. But that can be by the by.

It still seems to me that QH's main point refers to the situation in Sydney only. And what he seems to be proposing is pretty much the original NRC structure, the one that was undermined by the Shute Shield clubs (or some of them). I cannot yet see that QH is proposing any change to the NRC setup in Qld (other than to rebrand the two teams, perhaps), ACT, Vic or WA.

If I'm reading him correctly, he would like to see the Sydney based teams established as most of the rest of us would prefer. Pretty much the model that failed to keep the SS clubs interested, though, as they didn't prove to be competitive. When the Tahs took control last year, they reduced the number of teams to two, which still proved to be less competitive than would have been desired.

The problems from my perspective with the NRC are mostly to do with the way the SS clubs and the Tahs have approached the competition, and the failure of RA/Foxtel to properly market it. I cannot imagine any other club-based competition being the least bit as successful as the NRC has been in bringing players through to Super rugby and above.