J
Jack Connor
Guest
A very comprehensive report Primetime! Grammar seems to have hope next year but seeing as Inside Shoulder is quite critical of Grammar Rugby i'd be interested to see his response to that....
NSW AAGPS Rugby 2013
- Thread starter Inside Shoulder
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Use of names makes it very difficult for me to make precise comments without bring pointlessly harsh so all I will say is that I see ticker in all but I don't see the skill in many, if any.
I am very interested in the training program: but in the absence of intensive skill development it will only address part of the problem.
People should understand my motives here: it is to try to get relevant people to realise where grammar rugby is really at and to address the significant shortcomings. Addressing those shortcomings will not adversely impact on Naplan results.
Grammar were dusted in the 16As by a kings team that was going nowhere until this year, as I understand it. 30-0.
The firsts lost 100-0 in a, by all accounts, shortened game.
Combining these grammar teams to produce a 1st XV doesn't seem a very promising source of relief from my pain particularly when there is historically a greater difference in 1s than in age group As.
Anyone coming from 2s was not good enough to make this 1s team so I can't see much relief from that quarter either.
Having said that I'll admit I am a pessimist.
As I've said while attention to the 1sts is desirable and necessary a systemic approach, starting with the 13s, addressing primarily skills, laws and rugby thinking, is the only way by which long term respectability can be restored. I suspect that Primetime has close connections to years 11 and 12 hence his concentration on what should really be the last piece in the puzzle: an 8 month plan for yr 11 & 12 will do nothing for 2014 and beyond.
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Primetime
Allen Oxlade (6)
Before I reply, I must admit I'm the opposite; a strong optimist, and having witnessed most of the Grammar home fixtures through the last decade or so, I'd like to think I have some level of authority in addressing the school's development through this year comparative to previously. This year's squad held nowhere near the talent, nor physical presence of last year's team, though it is clear that, as incredulous as it sounds, they are performing far beyond expectation, Admittedly, as was the general mood through much of the GPS, last week's result against Kings was supposed to be the norm through this year, and I was indeed one of those people who thought as much.
I understand your concerns, and do share them. Yes, as currently, there does appear to be a shortage in the broad field of total rugby skill. But as far as I'm aware, not many of the current year 11 do a top-level summer sport (I believe Gorry, Robertson and Lee are 1sts cricket). You may be asking, how does that mean anything, but this is the beauty of it. With Fear leading the team, I doubt that the rest of the current year 11 boys will have a no-rugby off-season as Grammar's calendar used to provide. The players most in need of the touch up will appear to have the time and resources to do so, and if reports of the training they've been doing this year is any indicator, the application and commitment typically reserved for the Grammar classroom is now being projected onto the field and training park.
And I would strongly disagree with the skills comment in that you believe none, not one player on this team has GPS level skill. I would argue that all show a narrower spectrum of abilities, and that, I believe, has been the issue for a long time in Grammar rugby. They only ever produce one player every so often who shows all the requisite skills to be an elite player. The ruck-work, running skills, defensive aggression and scrummaging ability to be truly great forward. The kicking, ball-playing, defensively confident attributes of a truly great back. But all the players seem to show one of these areas. Look at this year's group closely, and I guarantee you it will suddenly be visible for you (pardon if that sounds condescending or aggressive).
Furthermore, to say development is being limited through to 2014 is plain false. As is evidenced by watching through the age groups, the previous rabble of structures and formations patch-worked between age groups is no more. Now, I have noticed that from the 13s onwards that there appears to be similarity in the types of core skills being emphasised, reflected even on that main field at 3:15.
My connections are purely those forged from avid interest in my school's modern day development. I did not attend during the golden days of the 60s and 70s, and was indeed there during some of the school's darkest sporting hours; I believe a soccer premiership was the only trophy I saw enter the grounds. If what you have said about being an old-boy is true, I implore you, this negative attitude towards your school helps no one. It is this attitude which raises the doubts in the minds of Old Sydneians, the players, and even the top officials within the school. I hope the school served you enough fond memories to provide you with the confidence to re-invest your faith in it. Because the boys throughout this year's rugby program have shown the passion they hold, and it is this type of undermining, snide commentary provided by parents, old boys and jaded ex-students which causes the most harm, and produces the most talk of their removal from 1sts GPS competition.
Give this program time, and it will reward you. Patience is a virtue, and unfortunately, I do not see it as being one upheld by much of the Grammar community.
I understand your concerns, and do share them. Yes, as currently, there does appear to be a shortage in the broad field of total rugby skill. But as far as I'm aware, not many of the current year 11 do a top-level summer sport (I believe Gorry, Robertson and Lee are 1sts cricket). You may be asking, how does that mean anything, but this is the beauty of it. With Fear leading the team, I doubt that the rest of the current year 11 boys will have a no-rugby off-season as Grammar's calendar used to provide. The players most in need of the touch up will appear to have the time and resources to do so, and if reports of the training they've been doing this year is any indicator, the application and commitment typically reserved for the Grammar classroom is now being projected onto the field and training park.
And I would strongly disagree with the skills comment in that you believe none, not one player on this team has GPS level skill. I would argue that all show a narrower spectrum of abilities, and that, I believe, has been the issue for a long time in Grammar rugby. They only ever produce one player every so often who shows all the requisite skills to be an elite player. The ruck-work, running skills, defensive aggression and scrummaging ability to be truly great forward. The kicking, ball-playing, defensively confident attributes of a truly great back. But all the players seem to show one of these areas. Look at this year's group closely, and I guarantee you it will suddenly be visible for you (pardon if that sounds condescending or aggressive).
Furthermore, to say development is being limited through to 2014 is plain false. As is evidenced by watching through the age groups, the previous rabble of structures and formations patch-worked between age groups is no more. Now, I have noticed that from the 13s onwards that there appears to be similarity in the types of core skills being emphasised, reflected even on that main field at 3:15.
My connections are purely those forged from avid interest in my school's modern day development. I did not attend during the golden days of the 60s and 70s, and was indeed there during some of the school's darkest sporting hours; I believe a soccer premiership was the only trophy I saw enter the grounds. If what you have said about being an old-boy is true, I implore you, this negative attitude towards your school helps no one. It is this attitude which raises the doubts in the minds of Old Sydneians, the players, and even the top officials within the school. I hope the school served you enough fond memories to provide you with the confidence to re-invest your faith in it. Because the boys throughout this year's rugby program have shown the passion they hold, and it is this type of undermining, snide commentary provided by parents, old boys and jaded ex-students which causes the most harm, and produces the most talk of their removal from 1sts GPS competition.
Give this program time, and it will reward you. Patience is a virtue, and unfortunately, I do not see it as being one upheld by much of the Grammar community.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
ive been playing and watching them for 40.
I have direct contact with the age groups you mention: how much for your jousting sticks?
I have direct contact with the age groups you mention: how much for your jousting sticks?
IS, you're dreaming. The pool room is full. You'd never get jousting sticks in there.
Think About Rugby
Allen Oxlade (6)
This is may be seen as a meanspirited or blinkered view. I accept your consession to "ticker" however it is inadequate in the circumstance. It is sad that a forum about a great game is polluted by such an extreme view. I actually watch them carefully and think there are some who have significant talent. The question is are there enough of those? The tread is about 2013 so lets not get lost in programs for under 13's it would be better to respectfully asses prospects for 2013. Do you have a constructive comment?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I was asked a question which I answered with as much honesty as I could without singling players out. Someone responded to my answer.
I once heard it said that talent is what comes out of the end of you father's xxxx. (must have been in pre-feminist times)
Its what is done with talent that counts, in all levels and in all respects: what was done to maximize it, what was not done? Those are the measure of a man, or woman. Why was it not done usually just provides an excuse or, if your lucky, an explanation.
The beauty about apologists criticizing me for calling it as I see it is that I can't lose either way: if grammar pull their socks up I'm happy. If they don't then I'm right.
Before you all get nose bleeds from sitting on you high horses why don't you define what you hope for over the next few years, or even just 2013.
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
^^
Could you borrow Grammars Trophy Cabinet to save on expense for your trophy room?
Mean spirited but couldn't resist.
I acknowledge that Grammar has a long and proud history of Rugby excellence, and that they are going through somewhat of a form slump at the moment.
Could you borrow Grammars Trophy Cabinet to save on expense for your trophy room?
Mean spirited but couldn't resist.
I acknowledge that Grammar has a long and proud history of Rugby excellence, and that they are going through somewhat of a form slump at the moment.
G
GPS1986
Guest
@ Inside Shoulder
Regarding the comment about the size of the Grammar boys, I see no need for such an obviously hyperbolic statement, especially when said in a negative way. That, or I believe you have an inflated view of your son's size.
@Primetime
I too have been impressed with the performance of the year 11s within the SGS 1st XV this season. From what I've heard, their dedication to training is also on par with the training of the older boys in the team, which is always a positive.
I think the no. 7 you are talking about is Krempff, who is currently out due to concussion.
Oh and forgot to mention. In regards to Lee, I don't think he has been performing badly, but the basics of just poor passing and communication issues (although not just a one man thing) at times may hamper his progress.
Regarding the comment about the size of the Grammar boys, I see no need for such an obviously hyperbolic statement, especially when said in a negative way. That, or I believe you have an inflated view of your son's size.
@Primetime
I too have been impressed with the performance of the year 11s within the SGS 1st XV this season. From what I've heard, their dedication to training is also on par with the training of the older boys in the team, which is always a positive.
I think the no. 7 you are talking about is Krempff, who is currently out due to concussion.
Oh and forgot to mention. In regards to Lee, I don't think he has been performing badly, but the basics of just poor passing and communication issues (although not just a one man thing) at times may hamper his progress.
Think About Rugby
Allen Oxlade (6)
Before you all get nose bleeds from sitting on you high horses why don't you define what you hope for over the next few years, or even just 2013.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote]
Not sitting on a high horse at all. I expect improvement - this is case you have not had the chance to notice is when players work on their individual skills and the team works on team skills. You do need both! Of course to develop a team which takes some skill in itself you need to develop the available skills in the team. Your view appears to be there are no skills in any of the players in the current Grammar 16's and opens. I will quote you again
[QUOTEI see ticker in all but I don't see the skill in many, if any.][/QUOTE]
It seems the navigation system in my car is taking me to the wrong ground. I am clearly watching some diffent.
Further to my hopes I actually agree that there should be more fundamental skill development in the 13's and up however that does not mean that all current players are write offs as you are suggest. Think again!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote]
Not sitting on a high horse at all. I expect improvement - this is case you have not had the chance to notice is when players work on their individual skills and the team works on team skills. You do need both! Of course to develop a team which takes some skill in itself you need to develop the available skills in the team. Your view appears to be there are no skills in any of the players in the current Grammar 16's and opens. I will quote you again
[QUOTEI see ticker in all but I don't see the skill in many, if any.][/QUOTE]
It seems the navigation system in my car is taking me to the wrong ground. I am clearly watching some diffent.
Further to my hopes I actually agree that there should be more fundamental skill development in the 13's and up however that does not mean that all current players are write offs as you are suggest. Think again!
OK guys that is the end of this particular theme.
Any more posts will be zapped even if only part of it relates to the matter.
I have edited and deleted some posts as I thought fit and if folks think I should not have; too bad. I even zapped one by mistake. Please don't respond that you zapped mine but this part of his should have been zapped. Life is too short.
Thank you all.
.
Any more posts will be zapped even if only part of it relates to the matter.
I have edited and deleted some posts as I thought fit and if folks think I should not have; too bad. I even zapped one by mistake. Please don't respond that you zapped mine but this part of his should have been zapped. Life is too short.
Thank you all.
.
S
Sydneybra
Guest
New will be strong next year with the powerful year 11 side coming through but will have almost no depth from the current year 10 side
Primetime
Allen Oxlade (6)
I would have to say that the 2013 premiership is Kings' to lose. In saying that, however, I think there's going to need to be a lot of reshuffling through their backs; the right players aren't getting the ball enough. The only school I see proposing a serious threat is Newington. On that note, where is the New vs. Kings fixture next year? I firmly believe that the home ground advantages are alive and well, and could be the difference in this one.
Yes, its real concern as a New supporter about the current weakness of the 16 age group. They have improved/ improving and certainly have displayed a more competive edge this year. But still lag behind the other schools. It remains to be seem once in the opens where the excellent training & coaching regime will further develop these boys, not just for 2013 but also 2014 However, the currently U/15As despite a mix year due to injuries are a strong side on their day. So a few players promoted to opens next year might strengthen a few positions. Also New do have boys entering the school in year 11, whether any of them are talented rugby players only time will tell. Also Newington is a proud school and in their 150th birthday some boys might also opt to play rugby not soccer next year and we do have very talented soccer players who could make the transition to rugby very quickly, then again I could be dreaming. Who knows, but the very able people who manage rugby at Newington I am sure are awear of the depth issue and will not be sitting around pretending that the year 12 age group for 2013 alone will be the answer.
The school at the moment that has the most depth for 2013 appears to Kings. They have 5 players returning from their 1st, a strong 2nds and their 16s have developed as a age group into a real force in their age group.
In terms of U16's, the 2012 age group is particularly strong across Shore, View, Joeys and Kings. With quite a few playing opens this year, and a few in 1sts as well this year, the 2012 U16A tables will not be all that reliable indicator of future (GPS 2014) 1st XV tables.
2013 and 2014 will be big years for View in particular as this U16 cohort comes back together in the opens.
2013 and 2014 will be big years for View in particular as this U16 cohort comes back together in the opens.
Primetime
Allen Oxlade (6)
Which U16s Kings boys are in opens? I thought the traditional policy at the school was that 16s just don't play opens.
I think Joeys and Kings have kept most of their boys back in 16's. O'shea is playing 2's for Joeys. Both schools have a strong 16A. Shore and New have quite a few 16's playing opens this year. Next year this cohort will ALL be playing opens.
Primetime
Allen Oxlade (6)
Promises to be an exciting and even comp for next year, or at least certainly the year after. Hearing of the strength of the Joeys 16As has impressed me in regards to Grammar's 16s, who apparently played quite a good contest.
Would anyone see there being greater benefit in keeping talented 16s players as a cohort in their own age group, or to give them the chance to develop against the very best? Not as clear cut as I once thought it was, the more I've thought about it.
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