NSW Schools Debating 2014

[Scythe]

The blazer requires you to have made the 1sts side in Debating, a winter sport, and a summer sport. Getting into these teams is contingent on your performance as an individual within the entire GPS competition, not based on the supposed weakness of your school relative to the rest of the competition. The difficulty of achieving this honour, therefore, needs no further explanation.

There has been a lot of discussion about the CAS competition. As far as I am aware this is quite a strong competition - Barker and Aloys are routinely among the best schools in NSW, as proven by Aloys wins in 2011, 2010, and 2008, and Barker's in 2012. The CAS competition regularly produces excellent debaters - Harry Jones, from Knox, was in last year's NSW side, while Bo Seo, from Barker, represented Australia in both 2011 and 2012, and Daniel Farinha, from Aloys, represented NSW recently, and was among the world's best speakers this year at WUDC. Further, Adam Spencer, whose alma mater is Aloys, is considered one of the greatest debaters in Australian history.
In terms of the CAS' strength relative to GPS - generally speaking the GPS is stronger. The GPS side last year was particularly strong, due to the might of the Grammar 1sts, so they made short work of their CAS opposition. CAS schools have won 6 ISDA Senior A championships, while GPS schools have won 11. It wouldn't be wrong to say that GPS is stronger than CAS, but it is unfair to discredit the strength of the CAS - they are both great competitions.

DubboDemon was to an extent right to point out Aloys' recent string of disappointing results, but it should be viewed as disappointing only relative to their previous dominance, i.e. two consecutive ISDA titles in 2010 and 11. It is true that they lost to Riverview in last year's Fr. Charles McDonald debate, though, to be fair, this is a historical norm, and it is also true that they didn't win the Jesuit Carnival last year, but again, this is more inline with the historical situation whereby Riverview have dominated these competitions. For the record, Riverview did not deserve to win last year's Fr. Charles McDonald debate, Aloys were rubbed.
It does not appear as if Aloys have a particularly strong Senior A side this year - their results have not been amazing, but I suppose we'll find out this Friday evening whether they meet their "yardstick" of success - defeating Riverview.

Does anyone have any info. on recent ISDA results?

Aloys won't win unless the view team is quite poor themselves. They are a strong debating school but not this year - Farinha also was a gifted speaker but not in the state side.

Bo seo was good but a tad overrated - but the coaching has improved with a huge budget to counter the dominance of Aloysius

Knox have also stepped up their coaching at one point in 2010 hiring 2 x Australian speakers in excess of one hundred per hour



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[yourmatesam]

The blazer requires you to have made the 1sts side in Debating, a winter sport, and a summer sport. Getting into these teams is contingent on your performance as an individual within the entire GPS competition, not based on the supposed weakness of your school relative to the rest of the competition. The difficulty of achieving this honour, therefore, needs no further explanation.

I see, my apologies. I've misread the quote originally. The boy must make GPS 1st for Summer and Winter and Debating. I had taken this to mean school 1st XV etc.

I agree it is very difficult for any boy to achieve.

 

[aka_the_think]

Aloys won't win unless the view team is quite poor themselves. They are a strong debating school but not this year - Farinha also was a gifted speaker but not in the state side.

Bo seo was good but a tad overrated - but the coaching has improved with a huge budget to counter the dominance of Aloysius

Knox have also stepped up their coaching at one point in 2010 hiring 2 x Australian speakers in excess of one hundred per hour

It will be interesting to see - should be a good debate. Out of interest, who's in the Aloys' Senior A team? I am aware that Xavier Gould and, I think, Liam Thorne is, but I am not sure who else is.

Seo was/is an excellent speaker, I am not in a position to comment about his ability, but I too have noticed Barker's recent improvement in the coaching stocks. Scots have also recently boosted the strength of their coaching, and I would say that Scots, Barker, Sydney Girls, MLC and Grammar have the pick of NSW's best coaches. A few schools could take a leaf out of their books.

I was at the debate last year between Riverview and Aloys, and like I said I think Aloys were robbed. Aloys were the better side, it's the simple, I don't feel it necessary to go into a thematic adjudication on who ought to have won, but there was a feeling, even amongst the Riverview crowd, that they were lucky to have come away with a victory.
I still think Riverview will have a good chance this year, particularly in GPS - if Senior A win tonight against Aloys then they will make the finals easily, but I can't see them winning the competition - I'll happily be proved wrong. The selections, as I said, weren't great, but I predict a win for the Blue and White tonight, and, if GPS is done right, the silverware might return to View for the first time in a few years.

 

[DubboDemon]

Interesting about the coaching. Riverview don't seem to invest much in their coaching staff, with a lot more emphasis on recent graduates and such. I have been told that three 2013 graduates have been hired for the younger years. Perhaps this perpetuation of people from the same debating past coaching the future teams is also perpetuating the slump of form. Do you think that they should broaden the selection of their coaches for the benefit of their teams?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Perhaps this perpetuation of people from the same debating past coaching the future teams is also perpetuating the slump of form.

You need ideas from outside the tent in any endeavour.

The end result of this type of in-house breeding program is inbred offspring.

Who for the affirmative case?

 

[Scythe]

Interesting about the coaching. Riverview don't seem to invest much in their coaching staff, with a lot more emphasis on recent graduates and such. I have been told that three 2013 graduates have been hired for the younger years. Perhaps this perpetuation of people from the same debating past coaching the future teams is also perpetuating the slump of form. Do you think that they should broaden the selection of their coaches for the benefit of their teams?

I think that there is nothing wrong with a bit of diversity in the coaching pool. Maintaining a strong old boy coaching unit maintains an element of tradition and ensures the unique style of the school doesn't get lost over time. However school sometimes offer jobs to less deserving members of the First III so I would suggest in these cases outside coaches should come into play

At the same time, as most debating coaches are pursuing high level studies or are currently employed in strong corporate roles the cost per hour can be the highest of any co-curricula. That is why some of the more experienced coaches can only return to the highest paying schools which I think is very unfortunate



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[Scythe]

It will be interesting to see - should be a good debate. Out of interest, who's in the Aloys' Senior A team? I am aware that Xavier Gould and, I think, Liam Thorne is, but I am not sure who else is.

Seo was/is an excellent speaker, I am not in a position to comment about his ability, but I too have noticed Barker's recent improvement in the coaching stocks. Scots have also recently boosted the strength of their coaching, and I would say that Scots, Barker, Sydney Girls, MLC and Grammar have the pick of NSW's best coaches. A few schools could take a leaf out of their books.

I was at the debate last year between Riverview and Aloys, and like I said I think Aloys were robbed. Aloys were the better side, it's the simple, I don't feel it necessary to go into a thematic adjudication on who ought to have won, but there was a feeling, even amongst the Riverview crowd, that they were lucky to have come away with a victory.
I still think Riverview will have a good chance this year, particularly in GPS - if Senior A win tonight against Aloys then they will make the finals easily, but I can't see them winning the competition - I'll happily be proved wrong. The selections, as I said, weren't great, but I predict a win for the Blue and White tonight, and, if GPS is done right, the silverware might return to View for the first time in a few years.

From what I heard both sides didn't get a grasp of the topic with the result going to Aloysius. Newington look strong this year will be interesting to see how they go in the final rounds



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[aka_the_think]

I think that there is nothing wrong with a bit of diversity in the coaching pool. Maintaining a strong old boy coaching unit maintains an element of tradition and ensures the unique style of the school doesn't get lost over time. However school sometimes offer jobs to less deserving members of the First III so I would suggest in these cases outside coaches should come into play

At the same time, as most debating coaches are pursuing high level studies or are currently employed in strong corporate roles the cost per hour can be the highest of any co-curricula. That is why some of the more experienced coaches can only return to the highest paying schools which I think is very unfortunate

Agreed. Schools like Scots, Barker and Grammar have their programs in order, with many of the best debaters in NSW divided amongst these schools.

 

[Scythe]

Agreed. Schools like Scots, Barker and Grammar have their programs in order, with many of the best debaters in NSW divided amongst these schools.

I would not put scots in that category myself. if I was to give a top 5 from all the boys schools in Sydney based on results in the last ten years it would look something like this

1. Sydney High
2. Sydney Grammar
3. St Aloysius
4. Riverview
5. Barker

For girls

1. Sydney Girls High
2. MLC Burwood
3. Tangara
4. PLC Pymble
5. Kincoppal

I would say Ascham and Kambala would also be somewhere on this list too


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[aka_the_think]

Scots have their program together insofar as they have invested in quality coaching. This investment hasn't yet translated into excellent results, but I am certain that in the coming years they will become increasingly successful. Their class of 2015 won ISDA in 2012, and have been the "premiers" of their respective GPS competition over the past few years, so they will surely do well. Their year 7 side also made the final last year, so they are certainly looking promising in the future.
You're list is quite accurate, though I feel that Grammar should be on the top of the list. 6 consecutive GPS premierships since 2008 is a very good effort, plus 2 ISDA titles, and consistent members of NSW and Aus. schools teams. I am not too familiar with SBHS' results over the past few years, but since 2004 they have only won the GPS premiership once, and that was a tie with SIC.
I also fell that SIC might be a little high on the list - they were great in the earlier period of the past 10 years (2004 - 2008), and admittedly have had two Aus. schoolboys in that period, 2 Senior A ISDA final appearances and 3 GPS titles, but their results since 2010, particularly in GPS, have been average, including last year's lacklustre ISDA Senior A result when they didn't get out of the pool stages. At the very least Barker should be ahead of them - an ISDA title plus a few CAS titles is enough, in my books, to trump Riverview's efforts.
Aloys are a deserved 3rd, in fact I think they probably deserve to be higher up.
I also don't consider it worthwhile to separate the girls and boys schools, they are both competitors in ISDA. However, I will admit I don't know a lot about the Archdale competition, nor the CHS comp. so I don't know a lot about SGHS and SCEGGS prowess - two girls' schools which I've heard are the best. My list:
1. Grammar
2. Aloys.
3. MLC Burwood.
4. Barker.
5. SGHS (going out on a limb, I am not familiar with their results, but considering your generous placing, they must be good!)
6. SBHS.
7. Riverview.
8. Kings'

That's probably my top 8.
I'm sure SCEGGS have a place here, but as I am not too familiar with their results I can't comment. Further, schools like PLC, Ravenswood and Abbotsleigh, to my knowledge, are quite strong, but it can be hard to determine whether they are entering their full strength team into ISDA or Archdale, and I find their lack of consistency hampers their ability to win these competitions. It is worth noting that Roseville won last year's ISDA in Year 10 - an indication of the future perhaps?

However, more analysis needs to be done into the quality of the programmes of the various schools around Sydney. While Aloys is 2nd, and Riverview is 7th, I don't believe their programs are particularly good. In the case of the former a strong internal, organic debating culture is conducive to success, though Aloys' recent decline in form may be the consequence of their debating program's relative impotency. Similarly, the latter - Riverview, has a strong debating culture, with a large amount of depth (I know that in some years they have 40+ debaters), but has such a poor program that they don't capitalise as effectively on this pool of talent as they once did.
Barker, MLC, Scots, SGHS, SBHS, and, of course, Grammar, have, as far as I am aware, the best programs - if you look at the majority of the top USyd debaters and past Aus. schools/NSW schools debaters, they will almost be exclusively be coaching at one of these schools. Their investment in quality coaching is the envy of this writer, and I am sure of many others.
Time will inevitably be conducive to an improved performance from these schools, if, like Scots, they aren't currently dominate forces, or will see these schools become even better.
ISDA have updated their results website, but it seems to be a round behind for every school except Joeys.

 

[Paddogreen]

High is the current holder of the Hume Barbour trophy. Possibly the oldest and most distinguished debating trophy. If not, then the biggest.

 

[Scythe]

High is the current holder of the Hume Barbour trophy. Possibly the oldest and most distinguished debating trophy. If not, then the biggest.

It is hardly a distinguished trophy at all after adjudicating both public and private schools there is a huge difference in standard - with the majority of schools having teachers as coaches or not even having a coach. Private school quality is miles above this despite a handful of good public schools


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[aka_the_think]

High is the current holder of the Hume Barbour trophy. Possibly the oldest and most distinguished debating trophy. If not, then the biggest.

According to the Arts Unit website it first handed out in 1930. The GPS Shield was first awarded in 1920. It most certainly is not the oldest trophy.
Scythe rightly pointed out that it is likely not the most prestigious/distinguished - I don't deny that schools like SBHS are good, but the aggregate quality of private schools is much better than the aggregate quality of public schools, and, whatever the case may be, the top private schools are better than the top public schools, I do not believe that SBHS, or the winner of the Hume-Barbour trophy in any given year, would come close to beating the winner of ISDA.
I also dispute that it's the largest, the GPS trophy is very, very large, the consequences of 93 years of existence.

I have a question about SBHS debating though - do they enter their top team into GPS or CHS in term 3? Because if their top team is in GPS then we can conclude that they certainly aren't particularly strong, they haven't won for a while (since 2006, which was a tie with Riverview).

 

[Scythe]

According to the Arts Unit website it first handed out in 1930. The GPS Shield was first awarded in 1920. It most certainly is not the oldest trophy.
Scythe rightly pointed out that it is likely not the most prestigious/distinguished - I don't deny that schools like SBHS are good, but the aggregate quality of private schools is much better than the aggregate quality of public schools, and, whatever the case may be, the top private schools are better than the top public schools, I do not believe that SBHS, or the winner of the Hume-Barbour trophy in any given year, would come close to beating the winner of ISDA.
I also dispute that it's the largest, the GPS trophy is very, very large, the consequences of 93 years of existence.

I have a question about SBHS debating though - do they enter their top team into GPS or CHS in term 3? Because if their top team is in GPS then we can conclude that they certainly aren't particularly strong, they haven't won for a while (since 2006, which was a tie with Riverview).

Agreed - couldn't confirm if they send their strongest side though will have to check with a High boy or old boy



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[Inside Groin]

High most certainly do send their top team to the GPS competition.

 

[aka_the_think]

High most certainly do send their top team to the GPS competition.

Thanks mate, this legitimises the fact that I placed High relatively low on my list, in fact I might even consider moving them lower. The fact that they enter their top team into GPS and don't have a tremendous amount of success (at least not compared to Grammar in recent years or Riverview historically) demonstrates that they definitely aren't the top boys school in NSW, especially over the past decade.

 

[Scythe]

Thanks mate, this legitimises the fact that I placed High relatively low on my list, in fact I might even consider moving them lower. The fact that they enter their top team into GPS and don't have a tremendous amount of success (at least not compared to Grammar in recent years or Riverview historically) demonstrates that they definitely aren't the top boys school in NSW, especially over the past decade.

Agreed I think grammar and aloys though are the two standouts from the results I've seen over the years



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[Paul Williams]

Long time viewer, first time commenter.
I was always more of a rugby player at school but I too liked to ply my abilities in the oratorical arts.

With the pre-season nearing its end, who are shaping up to be the powerhouses in Sydney debating. I am particularly interested in the GPS competition (I'm a Kings Old Boy).

I hope this forum can be a little more active in the future.

Paul

 

[aka_the_think]

For the past few months a number of independent schools (including Kings) have been competing in the independent schools debating association - ISDA - which is considered by many to be more than just a "pre-season", in fact for many it's the most prestigious of all the competitions they compete in.

At this stage I'm aware of a few teams who've made the finals for Senior A (equivalent to a 1sts team) - Grammar, Knox, Barker, Riverview, Aloysius, Joeys, Monte and I think Barker. In total 10 teams made the finals, and there are a few more I am not aware of.

The ISDA competition normally provides a good form guide for the GPS season, and at this stage Sydney Grammar would have to be favourites to win the competition. However the GPS has become a very strong competition, and Newington, Kings, Scots and Riverview would all have to be up there - Shore, Sydney Boys and Joeys are also strong, so there are really no weak teams. It is anyone's game, but, like I said, Grammar will be really strong.

In terms of sydney competition more generally, in my experiences Grammar, SCEGGS Darlinghurst and Sydney Girls have been the strongest teams as of late. A few months ago another forum go-er posted his rankings of the strongest teams over the past few years, but it is hard to determine seeing as a lot of schools don't get the opportunity to debate one another as a consequence of separate and simultaneous competitions.

On a side note, the NSW team seems to have been determined with:
James Stratton - Sydney Grammar
Seb Rees - Newington College
Theodora Von Armin - Sydney Girls High School
Sophie Large - SCEGGS Darlinghurst
Hoping to continue NSW's dominance in the Australian high schools competition.

 

[Wallaby97]

what's the tip for isda winners this year?

are grammar any good other than james strattoN?