onwards and sidewards (???) - Italy

[cyclopath]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Hugh McMeniman,
Mark Chisholm,

Fuck. Our scrum is gonna get mullered.

:

yes, because of those two. Not because we are apparently going to pick Matt Dunning... :nta:

Well, that too maybe, but the locks are a big problem. Chisolm did OK last week in tight, but MMM has not shown at any stage good ability as a lock in the scrum. Not disputing his ability elsewhere. Mumm, on the other hand, played plenty of lock this year and did quite well. I just can't work out why they seem to want to "make" MMM into a lock, rather than 6 (or 8).

 

[Pfitzy]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Agreed, I still have nightmares looking at the scrum shot from Twickers with MMM and Sharpe 2 feet away from eachother at lock.

Some of the best training a lock can have is practice scrums in the front row - then, and only then, do they realise just how important it is that the second row does their shit. Same for props who think they're the king of the earth - put them in the second row and make them realise it isn't all about the tricks up front.

 

[Scotty]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Will be exciting to see how Cooper and the Rabbit go in hopefully a 15 - 20 min cameo off the bench. I'd expect Tahu off for JOC (James O'Connor) maybe around 60 - 65 mins and Barnes or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) off for Cooper around 65 - 70.

We might see JOC (James O'Connor) for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) with about 10 to go, but I have doubts that Cooper will get more than a few minutes unless we are flogging them. I see why he has started Tahu against the Italians - it is the least risk, and he will probably get close to a full 80. I also understand that Mortlock is there instead of Cross so Tahu has experience outside him.

What I don't understand is what on earth Deans sees in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as a full back. I see the talent is there, but not the reading of the game or the kicking skills to warranted being selected there game in game out. He has hardly injected himself in the line, he has been out of position in defense and his kicking, particularly bombs are abysmal. Can someone please tell him that he is consistently kicking them about 15m too long? Isn't it obvious. Please Adam, go and have a look at some tapes of Latho - you don't need to land them on the 22, just try and get them around the 10m line and make sure they are contested properly.

 

[RugbyReg]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Ben Alexander -

"I haven't started a professional game yet, let alone a Test match," a stunned Alexander said after learning of his call-up.

shees!!!!

 

[Gagger]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Ben Alexander -

"I haven't started a professional game yet, let alone a Test match," a stunned Alexander said after learning of his call-up.

shees!!!!

So all the "We really respect Italy up front, will be focusing on that" is patently bullshit. This test could go very wrong.

 

[Pfitzy]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I like the cut of his jib - he's young, excited, and doesn't spout the tired lines. More like him please vicar.

 

[RugbyReg]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

this test won't go wrong. i expect a thrashing.

This is a pre-season trial. The NZL match was a Bledisloe. Regardless of the stage of the series it was a Bledisloe.

This is Italy. Let's make no mistake about it. The team that the ABs ran up 100 on at the last RWC. Don't get carried away with the performance last time.

Like I said, this is a trial now. Phil Waugh (starting) v David Pocock (on the bench).

Quade Cooper for the back up inside back spot.

JOC (James O'Connor) v AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

Barnes as a ten.

Brown v Palu.

McMeniman v Mumm (or Sharpe?) and Chisolm

Alexander v Kepu.

Plus redemption for Tatafu and Timana.

And a chance for forgotten men Turner and Ione to break out from their one test wonder lable.

Hell even skipper Mortlock has a lot to prove considering what happened the last game.

This will be game one. The Ities will be blown away.

 

[Gagger]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Noddy if you remember the Ities put a B team out against Hayman et al at the RWC.
Love your optimism but this will be no romp. We are patently putting out an inferior front row to theirs.

With our A team I'd have expected a nice win. I fear this one won't be comfortable.

 

[RugbyReg]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

3 Carlos Nieto, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Salvatore Perugini.

Can you honestly tell me that's a superior front row to ours?

This'll be a 30 pointer lads.

 

[Gagger]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Carlos Nieto (Gloucester/ENG), Leonardo Ghiraldini (Calvisano), Salvatore Perugini (Toulouse/FRA)

Neither Dunning nor Alexander would get a job at either Gloucester or Toulouse. Moore maybe.

Hope you're you're right!

 

[Gagger]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

What I don't understand is what on earth Deans sees in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as a full back.

I think with the Honkers match I've just started to understand where Deans is trying to get to with the back 3 and therefore why he's persisting with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) while we scratch our heads.

It's to do with the kick returns - where the 'Saders have been so strong. Instead of relying on a Latho to field the ball at the back and pull something out of his arse by way of reply - man on man, or kicking - Deans has the back three line up right across the park as the pill is taken. Defences rarely come up as a team in line, and even if they do you've got the fat lads as weak points.

So then what we see, like in Honkers, is Hynes or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) throwing wide passes across the back to find the holes and space for pacey ball runners like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Mitchell, Hynes or Cost-a-lote to run through. In theory, this approach makes kicking and positional skills less important to pace, step and swerve, although if you could go for all, you would (Latho come back!).

I think this is why he's staying with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - the length of the field runs he can do as a natural runner when working with two others across the back. If it isn't, then I'm buggered if I know.

 

[the gambler]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I like the cut of his jib - he's young, excited, and doesn't spout the tired lines. More like him please vicar.

Unless he happens to be big and black and has a tendency to push teammates in the back??

 

[Thomond78]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Agreed, I still have nightmares looking at the scrum shot from Twickers with MMM and Sharpe 2 feet away from eachother at lock.

Some of the best training a lock can have is practice scrums in the front row - then, and only then, do they realise just how important it is that the second row does their shit. Same for props who think they're the king of the earth - put them in the second row and make them realise it isn't all about the tricks up front.

Spot on. I'm, by and large, a tight-head lock. I'm the one who makes the tactical calls about getting the shoulder, and I can dictate a lot by where I load up - but I work as one unit with my tight-head. And I can do this because I've been there, and I know what he needs.

When I'm playing, which it looks unlikely I'll be doing for a long time, if ever again, that is. I hate knees... :'(

 

[Lindommer]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Deans is persevering with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as he doesn't have much choice. He obviously doesn't want to muck around with any of Turner, Mitchell or Hynes at fullback as he wants them to develop as wingers, not utility backs. And if running the pill back becomes more important than kick returns, as mentioned elsewhere, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has the potential to be one of the best. I've felt for years both Burke and Latham took the kick return option too quickly and should've run the pill back more often; I don't think I can recall either of them using their teammates in an ensemble counter attack from a kick. The French have traditionally done kick returns well with their angled runs and occasional switch of direction with a support back always running to the opposite side as the ball carrier.

Barnes as 10 looks interesting. Here we see Deans' master plan in action as he works towards creating depth in the Wobblies squad. If Barnes plays a blinder, with the fastest served ball from any phase play he'll have ever received, it'll be interesting for the next few tests. Will Deans try Barnes at 10 and Giteau at 12?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I like the backline for this game.
Granted defence could be a weakness however I get the impression Dingo is firstly blooding what could ultimately be our future main attack and also to give a boost to his initial season efforts of free spirited rugby. Unlike many I am not overly concerned with the result of theses games, more concerned with processes and applications. I we get these right the results will follow in the long term.
I really do look forward to seeing this team. I think they will surprise a few.

 

[fatprop]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

 

[Gagger]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

Why use 12 words when I used 200? :thumb

 

[Spook]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Will be exciting to see how Cooper and the Rabbit go in hopefully a 15 - 20 min cameo off the bench. I'd expect Tahu off for JOC (James O'Connor) maybe around 60 - 65 mins and Barnes or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) off for Cooper around 65 - 70.

We might see JOC (James O'Connor) for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) with about 10 to go, but I have doubts that Cooper will get more than a few minutes unless we are flogging them. I see why he has started Tahu against the Italians - it is the least risk, and he will probably get close to a full 80. I also understand that Mortlock is there instead of Cross so Tahu has experience outside him.

What I don't understand is what on earth Deans sees in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as a full back. I see the talent is there, but not the reading of the game or the kicking skills to warranted being selected there game in game out. He has hardly injected himself in the line, he has been out of position in defense and his kicking, particularly bombs are abysmal. Can someone please tell him that he is consistently kicking them about 15m too long? Isn't it obvious. Please Adam, go and have a look at some tapes of Latho - you don't need to land them on the 22, just try and get them around the 10m line and make sure they are contested properly.

Agreed Scotty although Latho took a while to come good...but the kicking game was always there.

I think the Italians will absolutely smash our tight 5. We must play an extremely fast loose game and move them around the place. I don't think we have shown them enough respect.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I think the Italians will absolutely smash our tight 5. We must play an extremely fast loose game and move them around the place. I don't think we have shown them enough respect.

That's the Deans way of playing rugby. brings back great memories of what one Robert Dwyer got us to do.

 

[Scotty]

Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

That would make sense if he didn't select Tuqiri in the squad. How does he fit into all that? And for that matter, Ioane doesn't either!

I agree it would be great to have a counter attacking back three, working in unison, and able spread the ball quickly to the other side of the field, but no matter how we look at it one of the fullbacks main jobs is to be able to release pressure via a good kicking game and to be able to put up midfield bombs with some chance of getting them back (his current strike rate on this must be about 10% at the moment).

I don't see the harm in at least trying Mitchell at 15, and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Hynes as the wingers. He is trying just about everything else.