Rebels 2016

[Train Without a Station]

Tapaui, Johansson, etc.

 

[TOCC]

In Sydney some players get signed to Super Rugby teams from second grade. Andrew Kellaway played 2nd grade last year and Lukhan Tui (just signed with Reds) played 2nd grade this year. Just saying.

That's more indicative of the trajectory of those players potential rather then the quality output of the competition...

Additionally both those players have performed very well at JWC level, I'd argue they were signed to Super Rugby contracts from their performances at the JWC rather then the Shute Shield.


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[Jagman]

Yes but it shows that 2nd grade was the level they were at when they were signed. Glad to hear that the Dewar will be producing young talent for the Rebels in 2016.

 

[fatprop]

I am surprised that the Rebels haven't created links to a Shute Shield club to be used as a feeder club in the NRL model.

It is all well and good to have a long term plan of growing the local Melb comp, but the reality is that they need to develop players in the short to medium term

 

[TOCC]

Yes but it shows that 2nd grade was the level they were at when they were signed. Glad to hear that the Dewar will be producing young talent for the Rebels in 2016.

I don't really see how that's relevant to the discussion of comparing the quality of the Dewar and Shute Shield though.. Players get signed from school and colts based on their potential, abilities and physical traits, they get signed with the expectation that they will improve, signing them at such a young age is increasingly becoming a means to secure the player for the future and accelerate their development.

They weren't signed because they were playing 2nd Grade in Sydney, nor does it mean 2nd Grade rugby has players of Super Rugby quality running around in it, it's more a case of players with super rugby potential playing in that grade who are not quite physically ready for 1st grade. Just like Colts and schoolboys..

 

[Highlander35]

If things had happened differently, maybe we would have got Sydney Uni going in that sort of fashion. But Phipps left, Hill got sacked, Foley backflipped on his contract. As it stands, we seem to be doing reasonably fine picking up youngsters, journeymen from other squads, and a handful of international top ups.

We're good for where we are now, squad wise and the local comp. For the future, we need to kick start the local production line yes, and hopefully having a proper EDS system over multiple years, combined with the Rising will do that.

I'd like to try and get the local colts to a stronger position though. Obviously the transition from Schoolboys to Clubs is weird everywhere, but in particular it seems to get fudded up here, and the colts comp is understrength. Probably a chicken or the egg situation. Is the comp small and weak because the schoolboys don't transition, or do the schoolboys not transition because the comp small and weak.

Ah well, rambling. Rebels 2016 hype train away!

 

[TOCC]

I am surprised that the Rebels haven't created links to a Shute Shield club to be used as a feeder club in the NRL model.

It is all well and good to have a long term plan of growing the local Melb comp, but the reality is that they need to develop players in the short to medium term

Like the Brumbies, having fringe players play in the local competition is an investment in the long term health of that comp. With the inclusion of the NRC into the calendar it has also provided that stepping stone for the short to medium term development of players.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'd like to try and get the local colts to a stronger position though. Obviously the transition from Schoolboys to Clubs is weird everywhere, but in particular it seems to get fudded up here, and the colts comp is understrength. Probably a chicken or the egg situation. Is the comp small and weak because the schoolboys don't transition, or do the schoolboys not transition because the comp small and weak.

Good point. To respond to Jagman's comment I would be surprised to see any players signed out of a 5 team colts competition, simply because you have not seen them tested to any real degree.

 

[fatprop]

Like the Brumbies, having fringe players play in the local competition is an investment in the long term health of that comp. With the inclusion of the NRC into the calendar it has also provided that stepping stone for the short to medium term development of players.

I understand why, but is the long term health of that comp at the cost of the development of fringe players?

 

[TOCC]

I understand why, but is the long term health of that comp at the cost of the development of fringe players?

If the NRC didn't exists I would agree it is at the detriment of the players, but with the NRC providing the next level of competition above that of the Dewar and Shute Shield, I think the issue is mitigated.

By also having the fringe players based in Melbourne the players can train, eat and live under the direct gaze of the Rebels coaching and high performance staff.


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[Dctarget]

I'd like to try and get the local colts to a stronger position though. Obviously the transition from Schoolboys to Clubs is weird everywhere, but in particular it seems to get fudded up here, and the colts comp is understrength. Probably a chicken or the egg situation. Is the comp small and weak because the schoolboys don't transition, or do the schoolboys not transition because the comp small and weak.

Ah well, rambling. Rebels 2016 hype train away!

Based off pure talent in each team, Colts is a far stronger competition than school boys. This is because basically anyone decent from school level continues on, reducing the amount of players significantly and in turn you only have 5 teams in the competition. Then as you implied, because of the higher level of competition, less boys are inclined to join and the cycle continues.


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[daz]

I understand why, but is the long term health of that comp at the cost of the development of fringe players?

I've been banging on about this for a while, fp. While I am all for bringing the VRU comps and local players along for the ride, the reality is that the Rebels need to be/remain competitive to ensure that local Vic players actually have a Super Rugby team to aspire to. That means imports and feeder ties to established QLD/NSW club comps to keep us sustainable right now.

If the Rebels remain mired to the bottom half of the Super Rugby ladder, or worse, become financially unviable and fold, this whole argument becomes moot.

Its a bit of chicken and egg stuff, I know, but right now it's on-field and off-field success and locking in our footprint first, long term local development second.

 

[fatprop]

I've been banging on about this for a while, fp. While I am all for bringing the VRU comps and local players along for the ride, the reality is that the Rebels need to be/remain competitive to ensure that local Vic players actually have a Super Rugby team to aspire to. That means imports to keep us sustainable right now.

If the Rebels remain mired to the bottom half of the Super Rugby ladder, or worse, become financially unviable and fold, this whole argument becomes moot.

Its a bit of chicken and egg stuff, I know, but right now it's on-field and off-field success and locking in our footprint first, long term local development second.

Yeah, I remember Eddie Jones complaining about how few games Aus kids transitioning to pros play, they just don't play enough hard rugby.

The NRC is great for those 8 odd matches, but it just isn't enough for those fringe units who are holding tackling bags all week in the S15 squads for 8 months.

Stick them in a feeder team, manage the program within that feeder team and everyone benefits.

And if they are needed through injury they are a couple of hours away, but get them playing and being smashed every week

 

[TOCC]

How many Rebels squad or WTS players actually played in the Dewar Shield for any extended period?

Or for that matter, how many contracted Tahs or Reds played the a significant amount of games in the Shute or Dewar Shield?

For the QPR a large number of players who turned up for their clubs sides were only made available late in the week after not been selected in the Reds match day squad.

I see what you are saying FP, but the reality is that most fringe at the Reds or Tahs players don't get much game time in club rugby until the super rugby season is over anyway. And logistically, the Super Rugby teams still need those players for opposed training and injury cover. I really don't think basing Rebels fringe players in Sydney during the Super Rugby season is logistically feasible or productive.


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[Jagman]

That used to be the case in Sydney but Chieka changed the policy pretty quickly I assume to get in the good books of the clubs, to show that the Tahs were engaged in club rugby. Auevasa, holloway, Gray, Roach, Kellaway, Horwitz, Ala'alatoa, volavola all played club rugby virtually from week 1.


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[qwerty51]

Yep, all the non-23 Tahs pretty much played when injury-free for their clubs.

 

[tony kennedy]

Mitch Inman playing for Toulon while World Cup is on.

 

[daz]

Mitch Inman playing for Toulon while World Cup is on.

Yep. Since Gits took Mitch's 12 Wallaby jersey, it's only fair that Mitch takes Git's 12 Toulon jersey.

 

[swingpass]

i thought Mitch was "unfit" after surgery, so couldn't play NRC. anyway so long as they swap jerseys again after the RWC i don't mind.

 

[swingpass]

re the super players and Dewar Shield, Ben Meehan playing for Box Hill tomorrow in Prelim final. None of the others for either Uni (English, Jeffries, Smith or Placid) or Box Hill (Samo, ?, ?, ?)