Reds v Stormers - Super Rugby Round 9, 2012

[gel]

Not the Game to rest Horwill. I am thinking Samo to 8, higgers back to six and Beau at seven. Samo to empty the tank and then unleash the two sevens on the Stormers in the second half. Holmes to start and Daley to come on later in the game. Say what you want about Daley but he is like having an extra seven he is that good around the park.

Actually I would be more inclined to start with the two sevens in order to gain the possession stats (and hopefully points) and then bring on Samo to run at them after they are broken in the first half...

The big issue still is that the way the stormers have been playing I don't think they will be broken at all

 

[tranquility]

To me this season Shatz hasn't shown enough to be put back into the side. To be honest i've never really rated him for the Reds as he doesn't seem big enough in Super rugby to be a handy ball runner or quick enough to be a decent disruptor, I just don't think he has a place in the current side and we seem to have a pretty balanced pack at the moment.

I am going to have to disagree. Shatz is a super talent and a great foil for players like Samo and Higgers. Shatz is an oldschool 8 who understand the role, he defends at the coal face all day, doesn't miss tackles and every yard he makes is a tough one. His work rate in close is as good as anyone at the Reds and I think he will eventually be one of the great 8-men of Reds Rugby. It's a damn shame that he and Quirk don't get in the same 22 more often because they both offer plenty.

 

[liquor box]

Not the Game to rest Horwill. I am thinking Samo to 8, higgers back to six and Beau at seven. Samo to empty the tank and then unleash the two sevens on the Stormers in the second half. Holmes to start and Daley to come on later in the game. Say what you want about Daley but he is like having an extra seven he is that good around the park.

I would rather having the 2 young breakaways on at the start, I dont want to risk them having to come on and try to start a comeback. Have them from the start and bash the Stormers, and then let older players with a calmer head come on to complete the job. Would Samo have lost his head/brain and got a yellow card when tired? Maybe Gill needs a break when tired to cool his mind?

 

[Train Without a Station]

The only way Gill should be in the starting side is if Beau is also there. I think Gill lacks the physicality of Beau at this stage. Plus from what I saw last week (That said, watching it on a tiny screen on the back of the seat in front of me on the plane, it wasn't the best view for analysis) Beau seemed to make the critical turn overs and Gill seemed to be getting pinged more.

I think playing away from the Stormers strengths and going to same backrow couldn't hurt, but also going Beau, Higgers and Samo has merit too. I imagine we'll be under the pump in the scrum, so Radike's ability to one handedly salvage the ball from a backpedaling scrum could certainly be handy.

Agree with the sentiment on Shatz not offering enough to crack the team. Not really a running option like Higgers and Samo, not quite a work rate option like Gill and Beau. Sort of stuck in the middle between a fetcher and a meter eater.

 

[tranquility]

Agree with the sentiment on Shatz not offering enough to crack the team. Not really a running option like Higgers and Samo, not quite a work rate option like Gill and Beau. Sort of stuck in the middle between a fetcher and a meter eater.

All backrowers can't be scavengers or wide running bullies. Some blokes need to secure breakdowns and protect the gut of the field.

 

[Roundawhile]

The Brumbies left Hooper on the bench last week and it cost them dearly. Put our two scavengers on again at the start and wear down the Saffas, they will have to contest every breakdown in numbers and limit their options. Samo on the bench to make an impact 60 to 65 mins in.

We can win this game!

Trust me little one.

 

[spectator]

Agree with Tranquility....Schatz does a lot of the stuff that goes unnoticed, and does it well. He looked less than good in his last outing but that was more to do with a headknock I understand, and the reason that he had a rest last week.

 

[Ruggo]

Just watched the stormers vs the Clan. I can't recall a side man handling the Clan like that. This Stormers side is the real deal this year. We need to be patient with this one and if we are to win it will be at the back end of the game. Our other big question is the bench configeration. 5:2 would be ideal but if we are bringing players back form injury we need the 4:3 split.

Who is the ref for this one?

 

[PaarlBok]

Who is the ref for this one?

Referee: Steve Walsh
Assistant referees: Angus Gardner, Rohan Hoffman
Television match officials: Steve Lesczcynski

 

[Ruggo]

Cheers Paarl.

 

[PaarlBok]

Apparently expecting Harris, Lucas, A Finger and AWH back for the Stormers game.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport.../story-fnbzn566-1226321636157?from=public_rss

Pity cause Lane did look good. But he might still get a bench spot or starting spot with Lucas and/or harris only playing half a game.

As to cooper..... Rumour has it 3-4 more weeks.

Would be stupid to drop Sam Lane after his performance last week.

He played WP U19 with some of the Stormers squad and will know them pretty well.

WP U19 Squad 2010​

1 Adriaan Botha WPRI​

2 Frans Malherbe WPRI​

3 Zolani Faku WPRI​

4 Jacques Kotze WPRI​

5 Stephan Schoeman WPRI​

6 Niel Rautenbach WPRI​

7 Siyabonga Ntubeni WPRI​

8 Wilhelm van der Sluys WPRI​

9 Eben Etzebeth WPRI​

10 Cameron Lindsey WPRI​

11 Nizaam Carr WPRI​

12 JP Swanepoel WPRI​

13 Kobus Porter WPRI​

14 Siyamthanda Kolisi WPRI​

15 Rick Schroeder WPRI​

16 Michael van der Spuy Maties​

17 William van Wyk WPRI​

18 Christoff Fernhout Maties​

19 Sam Lane WPRI ​

20 Damian de Ellende Milnerton​

21 David Strachen Maties​

22 Bradley Mentoor WPRI​

23 Craig Pheiffer HS Tygerberg​

24 Clearance Khumalo WPRI​

25 Ulrich Beyers WPRI​

​

Cant believe Ginga is actually one year younger then them.​

 

[emuarse]

Last year when the Reds won over the Stormers the game was played with a very high level of intensity. Commentators after the game remarked it was more like a test than a Super 15 game.
I think it is important to take that into consideration when choosing a Reds forward pack. What I remember was that the Reds got a lead in penalty points which in turn put more pressure on the Stormers to achieve results, consequently dislocating their game plan
Does anyone have available the run on side for the Reds from that game?

 

[gel]

Does anyone have available the run on side for the Reds from that game?

REDS: Luke Morahan, Rod Davies, Anthony Fainga'a, Mike Harris, Digby Ioane, Quade Cooper, Will Genia; Scott Higginbotham, Beau Robinson, Radike Samo, James Horwill (capt), Rob Simmons, James Slipper, James Hanson, Ben Daley. Reserves: Saia Fainga'a, Greg Holmes, Adam Wallace-Harrison, Leroy Houston, Liam Gill, Ian Prior, Will Chambers.

I think.

 

[TheBigDog]

I am going to have to disagree. Shatz is a super talent and a great foil for players like Samo and Higgers. Shatz is an oldschool 8 who understand the role, he defends at the coal face all day, doesn't miss tackles and every yard he makes is a tough one. His work rate in close is as good as anyone at the Reds and I think he will eventually be one of the great 8-men of Reds Rugby. It's a damn shame that he and Quirk don't get in the same 22 more often because they both offer plenty.

I understand what you're saying but my issue isn't so much with Shatz ability, I know he's a good player and i've watched him for many years playing for Sunnybank but his impact with the Reds seems to be limited and for me doesn't warrant a selection in the current team. This season especially I don't think he's been making those tough yards and he has fallen off a few tackles and even turned the ball over more than usual.

The game is evolving and yes Shatz does look like an old school number 8 but that may be his downfall. Every player on the paddock is becoming more mobile, there are props (Daley and Mackintosh for example) who can get around the park and do the hard stuff, forwards as a whole are more complete players instead of being slow lazy tight 5 with a hardworking backrow. Look at the best backrowers in Super Rugby today and they really need to either be quick on their feet and able to create turnovers (McCaw, Pocock, Robinson) or large humans who can break tackles and get over the gain line then link with support players (Thompson, Higgers, Spies). Shatz is stuck because he doesn't fall into either catergory and what makes him stand out isn't so unique anymore.

I have nothing against the bloke and am sure he puts in 110% but I just think Link should stick with the rotation he had for the Brumbies game, which includes Quirk who I agree is a great talent.

 

[The Red Baron]

Yeah I don't know about that TBD. Look at a bloke like Kieran Read. IMO he is one of the best 8's running about, and he does so much work that goes unnoticed by the average punter. Shatz seems to be of a similar mold.

I understand your argument about forward mobility, and that is certainly the way the game seems to be going currently. However, there is still room for a traditional 8, it is just dependent on what game plan a team opts for when they have options.

 

[SuperGrover]

I understand your argument about forward mobility, and that is certainly the way the game seems to be going currently. However, there is still room for a traditional 8, it is just dependent on what game plan a team opts for when they have options.

and the oft talked about 'balance' of the backrow.

 

[TheBigDog]

Agreed TRB, Read is one of the best going around at the moment but I wouldn't compare them as he is miles above where Shatz is. He also seems to have a bit more size about him, I for one notice his involvement frequently for the Crusaders which is more to my original point. Backrower size and playing styles aside I still don't think Shatz is performing at a Super Rugby level, he's a good player but shouldn't be picked at the moment IMO.

 

[The Red Baron]

Agreed TRB, Read is one of the best going around at the moment but I wouldn't compare them as he is miles above where Shatz is. He also seems to have a bit more size about him, I for one notice his involvement frequently for the Crusaders which is more to my original point. Backrower size and playing styles aside I still don't think Shatz is performing at a Super Rugby level, he's a good player but shouldn't be picked at the moment IMO.

That's a fair call.

The point of my comparison was to highlight similarities in play styles. In time I would be rapped if Shatz developed into what Read is today. The boy is still very young, and has time on his side. That is a good thing.

 

[emuarse]

After all this talk of No 8's, I decided to run the ruler over the best known players for that position, to compare to Shatz & Higginbotham.
I included Reid, Spiers, & Palu, and here are their heights & weights. I have marked in blue the tallest & the heaviest. and in red for the smallest. With the exception of Palu at a 118kgs, all the others are fairly comparable. Shatz is the shortest & Higgers the tallest.
Reid & Spiers are the No 8's that surprise me. The way they charge up with the ball I thought they might have been the tallest & heaviest.
For me, I don't think either Shatz or Higgers take the ball up nearly enough like the other three, although both probably offer more in all round play.I think Higgers is more suited to the No 8 role for the Reds, as he doesn't have a lot of experience in that position, & could develop over time, especially with regard to the Wallabies & the fact that Palu is a basket case when it comes to injuries. For my money, I'd have Shatz as the blind side flanker (6), & let him develop in that position. He has the size, but does he have the mobility, is my only question?

Apologies about the size of this table but it took a lot of stuffing around to get it here & I ain't changing it again.

 

[emuarse]

REDS: Luke Morahan, Rod Davies, Anthony Fainga'a, Mike Harris, Digby Ioane, Quade Cooper, Will Genia; Scott Higginbotham, Beau Robinson, Radike Samo, James Horwill (capt), Rob Simmons, James Slipper, James Hanson, Ben Daley. Reserves: Saia Fainga'a, Greg Holmes, Adam Wallace-Harrison, Leroy Houston, Liam Gill, Ian Prior, Will Chambers.

I think.

Was Morahan fullback in that game?