Reds vs Waratahs - 29th April RD 10

[Brumby Runner]

"If there's someone older who is better then you aren't good enough yet."

Or anymore, as the case may be.

 

[Dan54]

"If there's someone older who is better then you aren't good enough yet."

Or anymore, as the case may be.

Too true Brumby, and sometimes we get a little excited when a newish player comes along that looks great and forget it quite a step up to test level and sometimes the skills that make you good at super aren't going to make it a step up.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Probably the bloke I'm most disappointed in this year is the Thor

I said last year I think that he would be the starting 3 for the reds by about Round 4 or 5m particularly after going on the EOYT.

Blokes scrimmaging has barely improved, his running game gas never appeared at all and his general effort around the field is nearly non-existent.

It seems that this young fellow is an avid reader of his press a year or 2 ago or has been listening to too many "smoke blowers"

Fucking shame as he has or had all the physical attributes to be very very good. Maybe he doesn't have the "mental steel" to be a success at this level, let alone the test arena.

I just hope Stiles can bring the best out of him but it hasn't worked yet.

 

[fatprop]

I thought it was interesting to see both sides consistently being cut up by inside passes

The fitness and attitude was not there to get up and get accross and fill the space

 

[TOCC]

Probably the bloke I'm most disappointed in this year is the Thor

I said last year I think that he would be the starting 3 for the reds by about Round 4 or 5m particularly after going on the EOYT.

Blokes scrimmaging has barely improved, his running game gas never appeared at all and his general effort around the field is nearly non-existent.

It seems that this young fellow is an avid reader of his press a year or 2 ago or has been listening to too many "smoke blowers"

Fucking shame as he has or had all the physical attributes to be very very good. Maybe he doesn't have the "mental steel" to be a success at this level, let alone the test arena.

I just hope Stiles can bring the best out of him but it hasn't worked yet.

This is the problem with rugby fans these days, they watch youtube highlights and then set unreasonable expectations on a player to immediately step up. Before the social media age, players were afforded the luxury to develop behind the scenes and then debut at 21 or 22, but these days, a players is deemed not to have the "mental steel" because he isn't locking down the starting THP at 20years old.

If you're disappointed its because you set unreasonable expectations on the bloke, many of us on this forum have said people should expect too much too soon, give him time to develop. Tight-prop is a highly technical position that is developed through experience, and not raw potential.

I find it incredibly hypocritical that you are targeting him and claiming he is buying into his own press, if anyone is doing that its you. Talakai has been one of the better THP's in Oz rugby this year, it makes no sense to bench him.

 

[Melchior]

This is the problem with rugby fans these days, they watch youtube highlights and then set unreasonable expectations on a player to immediately step up. Before the social media age, players were afforded the luxury to develop behind the scenes and then debut at 21 or 22, but these days, a players is deemed not to have the "mental steel" because he isn't locking down the starting THP at 20years old.

If you're disappointed its because you set unreasonable expectations on the bloke, many of us on this forum have said people should expect too much too soon, give him time to develop.

Tight-prop isn't the realm of 20years olds, its a highly technical position that is developed through experience, and not raw potential. Show me how many 20year olds are starting at THP in Super Rugby, Top14 or Premiership Rugby. You can find maybe one or two at LHP, but not THP.

think that's right. should be able to be developed for a time especially those in the front row. but also hope that his salary is commensurate with his experience and players that are developing don't want the world because their manages talk them up a treat.

 

[TOCC]

It just blows my mind, that in a year with a large number of incredibly experienced players in an underperforming team, that a 20yr old with 10 caps is the player that Scrubber is most disappointed in...

Lets just forget about Wallaby squad members like Ready, Frisby, Douglas, Houston and Simmons who can't lock down a starting position, or other experienced players like McIntyre, Kuridrani and Nabuli who continue to underperform.

And what i will point out, despite averaging much less time compared to Kepu and Talakai, Tupou actually has better stats for runs per game, meters per game and tackle busts.

 

[Scrubber2050]

TOCC

Thor is just not super quality (yet) Maybe he should play Prems until he is.

Certainly plenty of posters raved about the bloke ( from the highlights reel) and built a pedestal for him. I'm not sure if you were one of those guys. I certainly was not. I've seen heaps of talented schoolboys, some were huge like the Thor, but never had the necessary attributes to make it all the way.
And TOCCI thought you were OK with players getting a good write up and profile

The real criticism should be levelled at the Talent guys about bringing on guys too early.
Having said that there are plenty of examples of very young guys stepping up in Super rugby - if they are good enough.

I have always said Thor's scrimmaging will get better with more experience, He is huge (even for a 20 year old) and should be improving at a faster rate than he has to sate.

It's his other aspects of his game that really are lacking.

I don't target the bloke - I, just not prepared to continually make excuses (as others do) for certain players.

I also agree that Sam Tak has been good this year.

 

[Twoilms]

The dark arts take a notoriously long time to master. Most props/hookers don't start to peak until mid to late 20s. Kepu, for example, took forever to get any good at scrumming. If Thor is still in the team and struggling in say 5 seasons, then he can probably be called a failure.

 

[Scrubber2050]

^^^^^^
He'd be let go before that !

However, as said, I appreciate scrums improve with experience but he is one huge unit so his weight can assist him until he learns the tricks.

It's his other aspects of his game that concerns me more. He doesn't need great tactical experience to be tackling and running with the enthusiasm of youth.

I am done (nearly)

 

[TOCC]

TOCC

Thor is just not super quality (yet) Maybe he should play Prems until he is.

Certainly plenty of posters raved about the bloke ( from the highlights reel) and built a pedestal for him. I'm not sure if you were one of those guys. I certainly was not. I've seen heaps of talented schoolboys, some were huge like the Thor, but never had the necessary attributes to make it all the way.
And TOCCI thought you were OK with players getting a good write up and profile

The real criticism should be levelled at the Talent guys about bringing on guys too early.
Having said that there are plenty of examples of very young guys stepping up in Super rugby - if they are good enough.

I have always said Thor's scrimmaging will get better with more experience, He is huge (even for a 20 year old) and should be improving at a faster rate than he has to sate.

It's his other aspects of his game that really are lacking.

I don't target the bloke - I, just not prepared to continually make excuses (as others do) for certain players.

I also agree that Sam Tak has been good this year.

Maybe he should be playing Premier Rugby, but who is going to step up, Kite and Vanzati haven't demonstrated any scrummaging ability above and beyond Tupou. It needs to be remembered that against his peers at QPR and NRC level, he has held his own and being dominant. Super Rugby is another level again, but just because he isn't dominating doesn't necessarily mean there are better alternatives out there.

Im certainly happy for players to get a good write up, but I've seen it before(to a family friend), and it seems to be happening again, where fans build a perception of a player based on youtube video and place unreasonable expectations on them, and then make insinuate they are mentally inadequate for the level when they don't make an immediate impact.

I like every other fan get excited about a new prospect coming through the ranks, however expectations need to be managed. Your comments about him listening to the "smoke blowers" and "mental steel" are IMO just bullshit, i don't think you should make derogatory comments about 20yr old kids unless you really do know the full details, theres a difference between making excuses for a player and making those kind of comments.

And it baffles me how Tupou can be singled out in the Reds squad of 2017 when there are so many other players who have the experience who should be perfuming at a higher level.

 

[TOCC]

It's his other aspects of his game that concerns me more. He doesn't need great tactical experience to be tackling and running with the enthusiasm of youth.

his stats, despite less game time, have been better then Kepus, Lomax, Faulkner and Talakais this season... The only Australian prop with better runs per game, meters per game and tackle bust stats is Alan Ala'alatoa...

They aren't exceptional stats, but they are better then other props, but i really don't consider the other aspects of his game concerning, as a tight head prop his scrummaging is his primary concern.

 

[Hawko]

Maybe he should be playing Premier Rugby, but who is going to step up, Kite and Vanzati haven't demonstrated any scrummaging ability above and beyond Tupou. It needs to be remembered that against his peers at QPR and NRC level, he has held his own and being dominant. Super Rugby is another level again, but just because he isn't dominating doesn't necessarily mean there are better alternatives out there.

Im certainly happy for players to get a good write up, but I've seen it before(to a family friend), and it seems to be happening again, where fans build a perception of a player based on youtube video and place unreasonable expectations on them, and then make insinuate they are mentally inadequate for the level when they don't make an immediate impact.

I like every other fan get excited about a new prospect coming through the ranks, however expectations need to be managed. Your comments about him listening to the "smoke blowers" and "mental steel" are IMO just bullshit, i don't think you should make derogatory comments about 20yr old kids unless you really do know the full details, theres a difference between making excuses for a player and making those kind of comments.

And it baffles me how Tupou can be singled out in the Reds squad of 2017 when there are so many other players who have the experience who should be perfuming at a higher level.

I largely agree with this, but it happens to lots of young players. In the Tahs squad Irae Simone was going to kill it immediately and be picked for Oz this year, based on his NRC form. That hype proved to be just hype. The guy is super-talented but just needs time to develop. His main opposition for the 12 spot is Horwitz, who has been everyone's kicking tee for the last couple of years (mine too). Last week I thought Horwitz played the best game I have seen from him; I am re-assessing my position on him.

Some players just burst in and are instantly good. Others take more time, we need to have patience and use Shute/NRC for developing them.

 

[Ash]

I watched the game and having a look at the thread this evening I should not be surprised that even with the looming death of professional rugby in Australia we cannot get over the shitty one-eye parochialism. SO many posts being hyper critical of the referee. Lets just have a look at some facts without even examining the game:-
1) Referees like players prepare for the games, they will watch videos of the teams and be looking for the usual tactics a team produces in terms of illegalities, and some players have their favourites as well.
2) The Reds have had a very poor disciplinary record this year. How many times has Stiles spoken poor discipline. It hasn't changed and when you look at the penalties given away and the rate of them it is in keeping with the trend.

Irony in the bolded bit?

Prior to this game Tahs were averaging 9 penalties per game, Reds 10 penalties per game. There were some very questionable penalties against the Reds, most were justified though. Reffing wise you I don't see how you can't argue that the Tahs didn't get the rub of the green without some of that one-eyed parochialism you mentioned.

Despite that, the Reds lost the game by seemingly not playing for the last 30. They were the architect of their own demise.

 

[Hawko]

Prior to this game Tahs were averaging 9 penalties per game, Reds 10 penalties per game. There were some very questionable penalties against the Reds, most were justified though. Reffing wise you I don't see how you can't argue that the Tahs didn't get the rub of the green without some of that one-eyed parochialism you mentioned.
Despite that, the Reds lost the game by seemingly not playing for the last 30. They were the architect of their own demise.

A fair summary of the game, I would add Perese's brain fart as a major cause too. The Tahs got the rub of the green but not hugely so. It was by no means a "Stuart Berry" performance.

 

[Twoilms]

I largely agree with this, but it happens to lots of young players. In the Tahs squad Irae Simone was going to kill it immediately and be picked for Oz this year, based on his NRC form. That hype proved to be just hype. The guy is super-talented but just needs time to develop. His main opposition for the 12 spot is Horwitz, who has been everyone's kicking tee for the last couple of years (mine too). Last week I thought Horwitz played the best game I have seen from him; I am re-assessing my position on him.

Some players just burst in and are instantly good. Others take more time, we need to have patience and use Shute/NRC for developing them.

Another good example of this is Beale. I hated him in his first season at the Tahs and he was supposed to be the second coming.

Came good though.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I largely agree with this, but it happens to lots of young players. In the Tahs squad Irae Simone was going to kill it immediately and be picked for Oz this year, based on his NRC form. That hype proved to be just hype. The guy is super-talented but just needs time to develop. His main opposition for the 12 spot is Horwitz, who has been everyone's kicking tee for the last couple of years (mine too). Last week I thought Horwitz played the best game I have seen from him; I am re-assessing my position on him.

Some players just burst in and are instantly good. Others take more time, we need to have patience and use Shute/NRC for developing them.

Even more reason for our talent identification process to be more focused on bringing guys through the club system and the NRC, rather than straight out of schoolboys, into the U20's and then into Super Rugby I reckon. It seems to be a particular affliction for OZ rugby in the last decade or so and leaves late bloomers languishing in grade footy for longer than they should be. That said, the exposure of the NRC should help enormously.

 

[Braveheart81]

Even more reason for our talent identification process to be more focused on bringing guys through the club system and the NRC, rather than straight out of schoolboys, into the U20's and then into Super Rugby I reckon. It seems to be a particular affliction for OZ rugby in the last decade or so and leaves late bloomers languishing in grade footy for longer than they should be. That said, the exposure of the NRC should help enormously.

How do you change it? Do you put a quota on the number of under 20s a Super Rugby side can sign?

It comes back to the compromise between wanting to secure talent, control development and also in a broader sense, keep players in the game (rather than going to league or overseas).

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

How do you change it? Do you put a quota on the number of under 20s a Super Rugby side can sign?

It comes back to the compromise between wanting to secure talent, control development and also in a broader sense, keep players in the game (rather than going to league or overseas).

A fair question. I'm not a fan of quotas as a general rule. I'm not saying we put a moratorium on signing youngsters, but at the same time how many of them are actually good enough to make the step up straight away? There has to be some hard graft done in grade and NRC footy before getting a crack at the big time, surely.

That's one of the reasons I support the NRC like I do, because it provides the pathway for the blokes who actually are pretty good and especially the ones who didn't excel at school because they weren't twice the size of every other kid out there or that they didn't come from a famous rugby nursery. When I look at the AFL and how they develop player, very seldom are any of them picked straight out of school. Drafted yes, but they're playing WAFL/VFL/SANFL before they ever get to the big time.

I think what WA and Vic are trying to do with broadening the base of the playing talent is probably the right thing. Only about half of our underage rep teams come from a private school, the rest come from the clubs and play their way through the grades.

 

[upthereds#!]

reds recruited Magnay super young so they wouldn't lose him, Rebels pounced on Maddocks and now the Reds have Angus Scott Young (EPS) and Reece Hewat on the books but missed out on Naisarani.

Few other u20 guys are doing well, but they have performed through a couple NRC seasons and had their fair share of bench time etc. Vui, Tuipolotu, Perese, Uelese. Then the 7s players.

Bit of hit and miss with the u20s, Picking u20's if fine, but not 1st year out in the full squad. Let them try and make a Prem grade team at 18, play NRC & State u20 at 19 on development contracts, try and get in the AUS u20 team, then if they are standouts, considering offering them full contracts

Reds did it some time ago which didn't work out great. They picked big portions of the u20 team. Think it was Quirk, Schatz and Gill as well as Morohan, Shipperly and Toua. All U20 stars in their years, same as Browning and CFS, most of whom havn't continued as stars.

Hoping same doesn't happen to Reece hewat, but sadly all I can see when I see him is another Quirk, Browning, Schatz and even Maclean. 190cm, 108kg u20 flankers/captains. None big enough to make it as 8's, tall enough as 6's or fast enough as 7's. Signed very young, offer good service to Qld but never stand out.