Refereeing decisions

[suckerforred]

A genuine attempt also has to be realistic. I don't think you get immunity from the laws just because you were hoping to get to the ball. If someone else gets there a long time before you, you have an obligation not to break the laws of the game.
.

Very true, but, realisticly I may think that I could get the ball and therefore it is a realistic attempt. We are forever trying to encourage people to 'try' our game and for kids to have a go because 'you don't have to be the best but it is trying that counts'. So, should they have a go, but only if the oposition are not better than you.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that this is one aspect of the law I think is very difficult to enforce because there is no cut and dried right & wrong. It is also very hard for a player to pull out of an action if all of a sudden they become aware of someone being higher/stronger than they are.

 

[suckerforred]

must.

not.

bite.

Now what exactly would you not be biting at gel?

 

[Bullrush]

Yeah I agree Cotrells yellow was very harsh


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This was a ridiculous YC. Great tackle. It's not the tacklers fault if the player getting hit drops so quickly he doesn't get a chance to wrap his arms.

Great hit and exactly the kind of tackle you want to see in rugby - not high but hard and honest.

 

[Braveheart81]

Very true, but, realisticly I may think that I could get the ball and therefore it is a realistic attempt. We are forever trying to encourage people to 'try' our game and for kids to have a go because 'you don't have to be the best but it is trying that counts'. So, should they have a go, but only if the oposition are not better than you.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that this is one aspect of the law I think is very difficult to enforce because there is no cut and dried right & wrong. It is also very hard for a player to pull out of an action if all of a sudden they become aware of someone being higher/stronger than they are.

It's not a realistic attempt if you get nowhere near it no matter what your thoughts and motives are.

I agree that it was probably impossible for Placid to pull out of the contest and that is why he gets penalised rather than anything more severe like a yellow card.

Just because it was accidental doesn't mean you aren't subject to the laws. In a somewhat similar vein, being covered by other players isn't a defence against not rolling away after a tackle. It's up to you to not end up in an illegal position, what caused you to be there is irrelevant.

 

[cyclopath]

Very true, but, realisticly I may think that I could get the ball and therefore it is a realistic attempt. We are forever trying to encourage people to 'try' our game and for kids to have a go because 'you don't have to be the best but it is trying that counts'. So, should they have a go, but only if the oposition are not better than you.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that this is one aspect of the law I think is very difficult to enforce because there is no cut and dried right & wrong. It is also very hard for a player to pull out of an action if all of a sudden they become aware of someone being higher/stronger than they are.

Quite right.
I'm not commenting on the incident, as I didn't see the game.
But it depends upon the starting point for considering playing the ball in the air. If that is "encourage the contest", then they must accept there will be some clashes, and potential injuries.
If it is "the safety of the player in the air is paramount" (and I guess they look at who was up there first??), then it makes it very hard for competing players who can't / don't get up as high or as fast. You're gonna be taking a big risk.
In this day and age, it seems minimising injury is taking precedence, which means players might get the rough end of the stick if they try to go for the ball, but don't do it very well.
Deciding "intent" is fraught with problems. Is intent there if someone merely jumps, but actually just collides with little / no hand contact with ball? Is getting a hand on the ball enough? Is it where they're looking? In real time, I'd hate to try and decide.
I think ARs and maybe the TMO need to more pro-active with some of this stuff. More eyes can only help.

 

[suckerforred]

This was a ridiculous YC. Great tackle. It's not the tacklers fault if the player getting hit drops so quickly he doesn't get a chance to wrap his arms.

Great hit and exactly the kind of tackle you want to see in rugby - not high but hard and honest.

I disagree. He didn't even have his arms up so there was no way that he was grasping at anything.

I believe the ref was looking at an incident in the previous play that may have been a tip tackle and didn't even register there was anything wrong with Cotrell's hit until he saw it on the screen & then asked to have another look at it.

 

[Bullrush]

I disagree. He didn't even have his arms up so there was no way that he was grasping at anything.

I believe the ref was looking at an incident in the previous play that may have been a tip tackle and didn't even register there was anything wrong with Cotrell's hit until he saw it on the screen & then asked to have another look at it.

A lot of tackles and great hits start with the arms being down. It's quite difficult to run with your arms up ready to wrap.
Soft, soft, soft.

 

[suckerforred]

Yes, but his arms didn't even come up after he dropped the player. And please don't tell me that his reflexes are fast enough to stop himself after hitting the player and realising he had gone to ground.

Recalling some of the hits that Palu has done in the past they generally ended with him grasping at air as the tackled player fell. In my opinion, the ref got this call entirely right, as to me he made no attempt to grasp the player.

 

[boyo]

must.

not.

bite.

Go on - you knows it.

 

[boyo]

One thing that I do not want to see, which I think is creeping in with some acting by the agrieved player, is that the sanction changes depending on the outcome of an action.

Like soccer? Holding the face even though the supposed injury is nowhere near the head.

 

[Bullrush]

Yes, but his arms didn't even come up after he dropped the player. And please don't tell me that his reflexes are fast enough to stop himself after hitting the player and realising he had gone to ground.

Recalling some of the hits that Palu has done in the past they generally ended with him grasping at air as the tackled player fell. In my opinion, the ref got this call entirely right, as to me he made no attempt to grasp the player.

I'm actually saying his reflexes weren't fast enough to wrap someone who wasn't actually there anymore. Great tackle, soft call.

I don't think I've ever seen a player 'grasping air' after a tackle but the thought of it is quite funny.

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

I don't think I've ever seen a player 'grasping air' after a tackle but the thought of it is quite funny.

I'm not gonna play with the actual tackle you guys are talking about but I reckon you see it all the time - especially Pac Islander guys getting penalised for shoulder charges that are actually spectactular tackles where the tacklee gets bounced out of the wrapping arm.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I'm actually saying his reflexes weren't fast enough to wrap someone who wasn't actually there anymore. Great tackle, soft call.

I don't think I've ever seen a player 'grasping air' after a tackle but the thought of it is quite funny.

That argument doesn't work because under the laws you have to try to grasp the player: its not a question of reacting to the contact and then getting your arms up you have to try to grasp the player

A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.
Law 10.4(g)
http://www.irblaws.com/?law=10

 

[Gnostic]

I disagree. He didn't even have his arms up so there was no way that he was grasping at anything.

I believe the ref was looking at an incident in the previous play that may have been a tip tackle and didn't even register there was anything wrong with Cotrell's hit until he saw it on the screen & then asked to have another look at it.

I looked at the tackle and whilst his should made first contact, that is as it should be, and how we were all taught. His left hand grasped the player and this grip was broken by the player moving back.

It was almost exactly the same as this one from Palu a few years ago and I still remember thinking what a load of crap, it wasn't even a penalty (as did the commentators really even though they hedge it a bit). And I think the same thing about this tackle too.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/wiki/wycliff-palu/

It was a soft penalty and a poor decision with the benefit of the replay that Kaplan didn't have. It was the only thing IMO that allowed the Reds into the game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Haven't seen the Reds one (yet) but i agree with Gnostic about the Palu one

 

[boyo]

It was almost exactly the same as this one from Palu a few years ago and I still remember thinking what a load of crap, it wasn't even a penalty (as did the commentators really even though they hedge it a bit). And I think the same thing about this tackle too.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/wiki/wycliff-palu/

At the time I thought it was a bullshit YC, and I still do. Those Irish commentators need to go into the room of mirrors.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Cottrell got what he deserved.
He actually lifts his left arm and shoulder into the guy in classic mungo shoulder charge.
If anything his right arm is carried by momentum so that it might look like he's trying to grasp but his arm/hand never go anywhere near wrapping the player up.
A good reason for this law is that if Cottrell had tried to grasp the player it would have been a nothing tackle instead of a big hit. Big hits go wrong and much more risk of unintended contact with the head, concussion etc etc.
Right outcome IMO.

 

[ChargerWA]

I could watch Palu do that to Irish players all day

 

[Sandpit Fan]

For anyone who likes a punt, better get any spare cash on the Lions this weekend.

Stuart Berry has the whistle for their game vs the Stormers, and it's at Ellis Park!

It will be interesting to see if he refs both sides when there are two SA teams playing, or if the Lions will get another leg up.

 

[Scoey]

For anyone who likes a punt, better get any spare cash on the Lions this weekend.

Stuart Berry has the whistle for their game vs the Stormers, and it's at Ellis Park!

It will be interesting to see if he refs both sides when there are two SA teams playing, or if the Lions will get another leg up.

I read somewhere that he was also the referee of a Lions vs Kings relegation/promotion match that the Lions won somewhat controversially to get back into S15 this year.

I can't find the article at the moment and I don't know any more than that but it could all be BS. Interesting if it's not though.