Rugby 7s general chat

[Braveheart81]

Certainly, it does not help that the 7s World Cup is clashing with the Lions Tour - but that is what it is. I do not think that if things had been different, that a greater number of players would have been called-up. Foley is a good player, but I don't see him necessarily turning around the performance of the Oz 7s team.

I think involvement from Super Rugby players will ramp up over the next couple of years as the Olympics and the qualifying tournaments for the event approaches.

At the moment we lack a third tier which allows genuine professional 7s players who then play in the third tier after the 7s season and Super Rugby finishes. Currently this is the big advantage New Zealand and South Africa have and why they can have seasoned 7s professionals who play every year and then go back to the ITM Cup or Currie Cup.

Our problem is that 7s is only a potential stepping stone to Super Rugby in Australia at present and isn't part of a professional rugby career option in its own right. It is unlikely that 7s will generate enough revenue in the next few years that it will become a viable professional option by itself.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I think involvement from Super Rugby players will ramp up over the next couple of years as the Olympics and the qualifying tournaments for the event approaches.

At the moment we lack a third tier which allows genuine professional 7s players who then play in the third tier after the 7s season and Super Rugby finishes. Currently this is the big advantage New Zealand and South Africa have and why they can have seasoned 7s professionals who play every year and then go back to the ITM Cup or Currie Cup.

Our problem is that 7s is only a potential stepping stone to Super Rugby in Australia at present and isn't part of a professional rugby career option in its own right. It is unlikely that 7s will generate enough revenue in the next few years that it will become a viable professional option by itself.

It had better ramp up... won't be hard to do from its current position of one 'maybe' player...
I would assert that a young 7s rugby player is in the same position here, as a young Swimmer, or a young Triathlete, or a young Hockey player...

the difference is; the Swimmer, Hockey Player and Triathlete can take advantage of an organised system of competition and trainingdesigned to produce Olympic Athletes - Rugby needs to look at why these sports succeed at a level well beyond their participation levels in australia (most peope follow swimming for 2 weeks, every 4 years).. and it also needs to look at Tennis, where History, Tradition, and a proven Network leading to the top level has gone from success to failure over the last generation or so...

Ruby may easily find itself in the same position as Basketball in Australia - enough talent to get to the games every 4 ears, but never even close to seriously vying for a gold medal.

 

[Braveheart81]

It had better ramp up. won't be hard to do from its current position of one 'maybe' player.
I would assert that a young 7s rugby player is in the same position here, as a young Swimmer, or a young Triathlete, or a young Hockey player.

the difference is; the Swimmer, Hockey Player and Triathlete can take advantage of an organised system of competition and trainingdesigned to produce Olympic Athletes - Rugby needs to look at why these sports succeed at a level well beyond their participation levels in australia (most peope follow swimming for 2 weeks, every 4 years).. and it also needs to look at Tennis, where History, Tradition, and a proven Network leading to the top level has gone from success to failure over the last generation or so.

Ruby may easily find itself in the same position as Basketball in Australia - enough talent to get to the games every 4 ears, but never even close to seriously vying for a gold medal.

I think the big difference is that 7s rugby is essentially a new Olympic sport and is not the main variety of the sport.

The Olympics is certainly going to be a big carrot in terms of encouraging young players to pursue 7s but I definitely think that most people will be 15-a-side players first and foremost and will shift towards 7s when they leave school and realise they have a talent for it.

I don't think we're about to see a bunch of young rugby players whose primary goal is to go to the Olympics. Every kid is still going to be striving to play for the Wallabies.

We need to work out how to transfer our ability and relative standing in the 15-a-side game to the 7s game. It would seem to me that we will struggle to do that until we have a proper third tier competition which runs after Super Rugby so that playing 7s can become part of a realistic professional rugby career.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I think the big difference is that 7s rugby is essentially a new Olympic sport and is not the main variety of the sport.

The Olympics is certainly going to be a big carrot in terms of encouraging young players to pursue 7s but I definitely think that most people will be 15-a-side players first and foremost and will shift towards 7s when they leave school and realise they have a talent for it.

I don't think we're about to see a bunch of young rugby players whose primary goal is to go to the Olympics. Every kid is still going to be striving to play for the Wallabies.

We need to work out how to transfer our ability and relative standing in the 15-a-side game to the 7s game. It would seem to me that we will struggle to do that until we have a proper third tier competition which runs after Super Rugby so that playing 7s can become part of a realistic professional rugby career.

I think you WILL see a 'bunch of young rugby players whose primary goal is to go to the Olympics'...

It already has begun (think Isles of the USA side)... A smart kid with real talent will quickly understand that a 3 or 4 year commitment to an Olympic Programme would translate into a healthy professional Rugby Contract when he is still only 21, 22 or 23 years old...

Olympic Rugby will get faster, and the average age will go down somewhat in the coming years - assisted by the fact that the level of fitness required will be harder for a 26, 27 or 28 year old - who has the option of 15s always in the background...

 

[Braveheart81]

I was specifically referring to Australia's situation.

Olympic 7s (and the IRB 7s circuit) is never going to be the pinnacle of rugby in Australia whereas you'd say that for places like Kenya, Spain, Portugal, and possibly Fiji and the USA, 7s is currently the pinnacle (and could easily remain so).

 

[SevensPhD]

In 7's he will not be of any use because one of the things needed in 7's is a player that can sprint and make it to the line without being caught up. Gill do not have that pace sorry for saying it but its the truth. There is 0 rucks in Sevens, There is mauls and scrums bt rucks do not exist because the attack have to commit the player that was tackled. Another person to secure the ball and your scrummie where the defense only commits the tackler. So you can work it out yourself you sit with 6 for the defense and 4 guys for the attack. I can assure you next contact you will lose the ball and get put 7 on you . If Gill is outstanding in jumping which is very important for the kick offs then by all means yes. It is one of the areas where one can win the ball and get that valuable possession. But I can assure you will struggle if you have players that can't spint all the way to the other end with a line break. It means you will have to everything over again once he get tackled.

Further more the ability to work under constant pressure is also a important factor.

I think Rassie last played/watched 7s when his avatar roamed the earth.

I'd say rucking in sevens is a more difficult skill than 15s, and one where an excellent ball hawk like Gill could excel. One on one or two on two rucks uses the core skills of ruck techniques, not the 3-4 men diving over the pile you see in 15s. Ball retention is THE critical factor in sevens (why teams rarely kick even from their own goal line), and the ability to hold your position in the ruck is much more difficult alone than with 2 props, a lock, and a couple flankers. Fiji, South Africa and NZ have very large, yet mobile men winning ball for their steppers and finishers.

 

[Jets]

According to IRB stats teams average 9 rucks (where they take the ball in) a game, interesting Australia averages 13 which is the highest on the circuit. Each game has around 18 rucks. Interesting stat was Fiji only commit 1 man to 95% of their rucks and 2 to the other 5%. While the rucks in 7's are not what they are in 15's they are still there.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

All this talk about individual skillsets is fine, but call a Spade a Spade... When I watch the 7s, it LOOKS to me like our players are PHYSICALLY not in the same ball park as some of the other leading sides - and this includes the team that played in the London Final... Perhaps my eyes are decieving me - but that is what I see. That to me points to a problem in the talent-identification process.

Am I wrong?

 

[wamberal]

According to IRB stats teams average 9 rucks (where they take the ball in) a game, interesting Australia averages 13 which is the highest on the circuit. Each game has around 18 rucks. Interesting stat was Fiji only commit 1 man to 95% of their rucks and 2 to the other 5%. While the rucks in 7's are not what they are in 15's they are still there.

Absolutely rucks and mauls are there. And the clever sides, like New Zealand, will exploit their strengths in the tight against sides who are not prepared to muscle up.


Over the years that I have been watching Sevens, the most dramatic fall from grace has been the Fijians. Probably the major reason is that they lose many of their best players to European rugby and (ugh) the NRL.


But a very important contributing reason is that they just refuse to muscle up in the tight.

 

[p.Tah]

AUSTRALIA'S new sevens tsar says Wallabies and Super Rugby players can switch to sevens for the Rio Olympics - but they'd have to miss the 2015 Rugby World Cup to make the team.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/r...-rugby-world-cup/story-fnibc972-1226654727935

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/r...-rugby-world-cup/story-fnibc972-1226654727935

hahahhaaaahhaaaaaaahaaaaa! This is the new 7s 'Tsar'? Wow.

So what he is actually saying, is that one team or the other must be weakened, as the way forward.

 

[SevensPhD]

I transcribed Bill Pulver's answer to "what is being done to actively encourage people to engage more in sevens":

Step 1: I’ve appointed somebody nationally accountable for sevens rugby. Anthony Eddy- we have a dedicated executive focused exclusively on sevens rugby.

Point 2: And sevens has actually developed at the international level. There are nine tournaments played around the world. One of those is ours. On 12th and 13th October in the Gold Coast is a phenomenal tournament that I would ask you support and get up there and have a fun weekend. If any of you have ever been to Hong Kong or any of these tournaments, they’re great fun. You can dress up, you can do whatever you like. It’s a party, but it’s a party with great rugby so please get there and support it.

We need to put sevens competition structure all the way down through the age groups from juniors to seniors, to schools to a national competition. I would like to see Super Rugby sevens. I’m already talking to Super Rugby chief executives about Super Rugby competitions, topping and tailing the current XVs. So you’re going to see an infrastructure put in place.

One of the other issues with sevens, I’ll ask you and it’s interesting, because Greg’s [Clark] son is actually part of the Australian sevens, so apart from the Clark child, can anyone name another Australian men’s sevens player? By and large we don’t have profile names in sevens and there’s a bit of a policy issue that Australian Rugby is deciding you’re a XVs player, you’re a sevens player. Well I’m going to mix that up and in June basically in a couple of days they’re going to Moscow for the World Cup of sevens. Bernard Foley is going, Matt Lucas is going and there’s a third, Luke Morahan is going. And guys like Isreal Folau, guys like James O’Connor, they want to play sevens so we need to find an approach where you can mix between sevens and XVs.


And again I wish I had 50 million bucks sitting in the bank to invest in all this stuff which I don’t. But there will be a lot more time and effort going into it. The same on the women’s side and really we need to put a competition structure right down through the game. The Olympics will help enormously. You touched on a really serious point-we’ve got to qualify, I'll spare the pain of the qualification process but there’s a lot to do. We will get there.

 

[SevensPhD]

Another question: "You mentioned that revenues are going to dip in the next couple of years after this Lions season, I’m interested to understand what strategies you've put in place to raise that and how sevens will fit into that?"

Bill Pulver:
That’s a very good question because the financial health of the game ultimately requires revenue growth. There a couple of key drivers internationally behind the game and you mentioned one. Sevens rugby at the international level is now 8% of the IRB’s revenue, and in Australia it’s 2%. And half of that comes from government funding. So there is an economic engine inside sevens rugby that we need to do a better job of taking advantage of. As Tracy mentioned, the Olympic Games will actually add a real fillip to that as well. There’s not really a much of a feeling today about the Olympics grabbing hold of growth inside sevens, but it will be within 12 to 18 months.

Another key economic driver is women in rugby. A fascinating statistic: about 5.5 million people play rugby worldwide and 20% of the global playing population is female; in Australia about 3%. Women play the same entry price as men. They determine the sports their kids play. The elite athletes among them go on to have the potential of winning Olympic medals. So there’s another economic engine.

Ultimately 95% of the game’s revenue in Australia comes from Super Rugby and the Wallabies. About 60% of the Wallabies the balance to Super Rugby. We need to be more successful at the elite level. There is a direct correlation between success with the Wallabies and success of Super Rugby and revenue growth. So we will try to put strategies in place that accelerate the development of our elite players so we win more Super Rugby games. Yesterday I had a strategy meeting with the five chief executives of the Super Rugby competitions in Australia, RUPA and representatives from club rugby in Sydney and Brisbane and we’re really trying to establish how we accelerate that talent. South Africa and New Zealand do it very well. They have the Currie Cup and the ITM Cup, and New Zealand is just a role model in a sense, but ultimately it’s about revenue growth that will come from one of those key areas.

 

[SevensPhD]

I think I have hijacked this thread...but good news for 7s is more funding via Australian Commonwealth Games for youth: http://www.rugby.com.au/sevens/News/NewsArticle/tabid/1754/ArticleID/9353/Default.aspx

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Servo is a politician. He really says nothing beyond motherhood statements in the answers transcribed on post #152, #153.

The responses suggest that ARU really have no idea, and Mr Eddy the incoming GM 7's really has to get cracking pretty bloody soon.

We need revolution not evolution if we want to have a serious crack at Gold in Rio 16.

 

[wamberal]

Servo is a politician. He really says nothing beyond motherhood statements in the answers transcribed on post #152, #153.

The responses suggest that ARU really have no idea, and Mr Eddy the incoming GM 7's really has to get cracking pretty bloody soon.

We need revolution not evolution if we want to have a serious crack at Gold in Rio 16.

Revolution, eh Hugh? Exactly what do you recommend?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Start with a plan that does not include all the usual political motherhood statements in it.

It should have tangible and measurable deliverables.

Fartarseing around with existing structures, tinkering around the edges will only result in repeating where we currently are.

The dreaded "pathway" needs to be properly established, and not just laid out around the existing competitions, and organisations. A coordinated and graduated series of competitions need to be established rather just maintain the existing adhoc arrangements. Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater, some of the competitions could be retained or enhanced tio better fit in with the vision.

It is going to cost money and time. If that money is not found, then we should just give up the dream that we have some form of right to be able to compete for gold in Rio.

 

[wamberal]

The choice is, therefore, in practical terms, between ad hocery on the one hand, and nothing on the other.


I choose ad hocery. It is better than nothing.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

You are right that ad hoc is better than nothing.

Both approaches (ad hoc and nothing) more or less guarantee that there will not be an AUS team (girls or boys) on the podium in Rio, let alone wearing Gold.

We can either accept that scenario, and sit back and rejoice in the quality of 7's that the Blacks, Saffers, Team yUK, and Fiji will showcase at Rio, or try to do something about it.

 

[wamberal]

If we look at the four nations you mentioned, New Zealand has had a well established Sevens culture for many years (in fact, when the Hong Kong Sevens first started in 1976, they did not send their national team, they sent the province who won the national Sevens tournament). South Africa and England have, I assume, far more money than we do to throw at their squads. Fiji are actually struggling these days, even though they also have a very long-standing Sevens culture (my theory is that the game has moved on, and they haven't - they are not so good at the grind that the other three teams you mentioned can utilise - plus of course they lose a lot of players to Europe and the NRL).

So we are well behind the eight ball, and frankly, I am pretty much resigned to that being the case during my lifetime.