Rugby 7s general chat

[wamberal]

The problem(s) as I see them are numerous, least of all the hypocrisy of the ARU towards the current sevens players.
It is well accepted by the players they were told in no uncertain terms that super and test players would NOT be in contention for the Olympic selection. This had the effect of the players accepting their meagre remuneration as compensation for an Olympic spot.
They were also told of a supposed sponsorship boost by QANTAS which would give then higher payments.
Both are lies and a misuse of trust.

Nobody, but nobody would be stupid enough to make decisions today based upon the promise of the guarantee of Olympic representation, I hope. For starters, the Thunderbolts might not quality for the Olympics. Players can get injured, or lose form, or (gasp) get offered a more lucrative option in 15s. They are not slaves, they are perfectly capable of looking at the facts, and the possible future options, and make the best decisions for themselves. I would guess that only two or three of the current squad will still be in contention when Rio rolls around.

I'm afraid until the ARU can come up with a financial solution to the super players foregoing super rugby and also compensating current sevens players we will not only continue to be an also ran at sevens our Olympic program will not be anything too special.

The ARU has the unenviable task of dividing a relatively small revenue pie across the whole game in Australia, from the juniors up to the Wallabies. Sevens is just a small part of the picture. Are you really suggesting that, if we paid our current Sevens players two or three times the amount they are earning now, that we would win Gold?


The more they are paid, the better we will do?


I don't think it works like that, old chap.

 

[SevensPhD]

The more they are paid, the better we will do?


I don't think it works like that, old chap.

I don't think anyone would think that paying someone more makes them play better- unless maybe its incentive/bonus based on performance like Kenya 7s.

The idea of paying 7s players on equal with Super Rugby is to attract and retain better rugby players on the 7s team.

Some of the top 7s contracts are currently in the $50-60K range. Not too bad, but most are below that level.

 

[USARugger]

wamberal

It's all about talent retention. It's a professional market now and you can't expect to retain top-level talent when you are paying them less than some Super Rugby rookies are making.

 

[SevensPhD]

On selecting 15s players for the Olympics:

The following is a quote from a South Africa Sevens HP manager. I was there collecting data in December, and toured their Stellenbosch Academy of Sports which houses the Sevens team and an academy/developmental 7s squad. I also witnessed this developmental side with no sevens caps easily defeat a Cheetahs side stocked with Super Rugby players. They also beat a Bulls team, but that team had younger, fringe Super 15 players.

South Africa will open up all players to Olympic selection, but with some caution:

"I think all the best players will be available. I know they’ve spoken about it but I think they’re going to release all national players for this but I’m not sure how long in advance they’re going to release them and that’s where the problem comes in.

So if you saw the games we played this weekend, we went with our academy here, 19 year olds and one 25 year old so a bunch of youngsters and no big names on our team. They’re all unknown names and we played in the final against the Cheetahs with all their super 15 players available and there’s some good talent in there. Good players, they play 15 and the result shows for itself. We beat them 29-14 I think and it just shows, it doesn’t mean if you’re a 15 player or a national player that you’re going to be a good sevens player or going to be a good team. So for us it’s good, it shows a lot of work goes into it and there can be some merit to what we’re doing here to go and beat super 15 players with a bunch of youngsters and not just by one point. It was convincing so I think the guys will be released but if they release them they’re going to have to release the players for the whole season."

A lot of talk about what the USA is doing, but South Africa has the largest sevens budget, were the first to have a residency programme/training centre specifically for sevens, and has a core team of sevens players contracted with good wages. The core of their team (Afrika, Horne, Fry, Snyman, etc) has been together for several years. Their academy has produced some of the top young talent on this year's Series, but some of them have been snatched up by Super Rugby paychecks. The Bulls have also started a 7s academy and will compete in an African Sevens Series that is in development.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

. Are you really suggesting that, if we paid our current Sevens players two or three times the amount they are earning now, that we would win Gold?


The more they are paid, the better we will do?


I don't think it works like that, old chap.

i think that statement is being at best, deliberately obtuse, and at worst, just plain dull...

why would you accuse others of nonsensical logic - that no-one else has suggested besides yourself?

What is being suggested, is that if the Australian 7s programme was put on an equal footing with other international teams in terms of resources, and yes - financial remuneration, that one might expect that a). You stand a much stronger chance of attracting elite athletes to the cause, b). those athletes may see a means of surviving for the 2, 3 or 4 years they may need to dedicate themselves to becoming an Olympic 7s player - (not to get rich, but to make ends meet - much like our swimmers, hockey players, triathletes etc)... and c). to put pathways in place - for both male and female athletes to participate in a competition designed competitive enough to prepare them for the international stage...

It does not have to cost a fortune - but certainly a model like the Australian Men's & Women's Hockey teams would be approriate - drawing a small pool of high-calibre international athletes, from a relatively small player base - is an approriate one.

Compare this with the current ARU position, where they are basically saying to the Super Rugby Players - "jump to 7s if you want to - but if you do, we will take away your livelihood - and those contracts you have signed, in order for you to represent US at 7s...

It is nonsense.

 

[Jets]

You would think when the next CBA comes around that RUPA would look at a minimum wage for 7's players. If you are expected to be in that sort of condition and manage to play in 3 IRB tournaments then $50K a year would be good remuneration. Couple this with residency for training camps and educational options, as I suggested earlier, and the whole idea becomes more attractive to young players.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

You would think when the next CBA comes around that RUPA would look at a minimum wage for 7's players. If you are expected to be in that sort of condition and manage to play in 3 IRB tournaments then $50K a year would be good remuneration. Couple this with residency for training camps and educational options, as I suggested earlier, and the whole idea becomes more attractive to young players.

If an 18 year old kid with a bit of high school rugby, some real talent as say, a sprinter or a tri-athlete, and a sniff of Schoolboy Rep Rugby in his CV is looking at the 7s, he has to see some 'shape'... he has to see a means of getting by for 3 or 4 years in order for an Olympic Games to come around (I understand the World Cup 7s will cease by 2016) - and he has to see a good reason not to take up a 5-figure contract with a super rugby team, if offerred... So yes - a 40 or 50K a year contract - and perhaps some educational options, would make alot of sense for a kid who can see himself earning a good living in the 15s game later on...

The position rugby finds itself in with 7s is no different to the one cricket found itself in years ago when ODIs began - do you identify separate talents for 2 different teams? (the only difference was ODIs were a money-spinner from the beginning).

The ARU and RUPA should both be pushing for 'free-movement' between Super Rugby and the 7S programme, for those FEW players who are requested by 7s - with an 'arbitration' model to handle those few issues where there is a conflict between say - a Wallabies Squad, and a 7s competition - (in the odd instance when such a conflict cannot be resolved by the player & coaches themselves)...

 

[SevensPhD]

Bernard Foley might miss the Tahs Lions match for RWC7s duty, along with maybe another unamed Reds player.... http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...y-out-of-tahs-lions-clash-20130528-2n9mb.html

 

[Braveheart81]

Bernard Foley might miss the Tahs Lions match for RWC7s duty, along with maybe another unamed Reds player.. http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...y-out-of-tahs-lions-clash-20130528-2n9mb.html

Presumably the Reds player is Morahan.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Possibly just putting a finger in the dyke when the water is already coming over the top - but as an initiative, I applaud it.

 

[wamberal]

Presumably the Reds player is Morahan.

Or Ed Quirk, maybe.

 

[Jets]

I think Morahan would be more valuable than Quirk with limited prep time.

 

[SevensPhD]

Is anyone else headed to the Sports Business Club Panel on Thursday, 31 May in Sydney? Pulver, Greg Peters, Clarkie, Al Baxter, and David Barham will all be speaking about 7s, 3rd tier, and other things.

I am headed there to ask about a rumoured "Super Sevens Series" competition. Each Super Rugby franchise will have a 7s academy. Each will host a tournament (so 15 tourneys) from late September through February. Off-season and fill a void in the summer for contact sports. May also include one Pacific Islands or African combined team to fill the 16th spot in an IRB 7s format.

If anyone else will be there, look for me.

 

[Rassie]

because 7s is a different game, often producing a subtley different athlete, and the club structure which produces 15s players (however haphazardly) is not that suitable for producing 7s players - particularly in countries - like Australia - where the player depth is somewhat shallow.

Not really.
On a squad of nine or ten, a team should really have two jumpers, and a second player that can kick at least reasonably well.
Kicker that must be capable of at least making easy conversions. One that can kick of well is also a plus. Then you have your finishers. Guys that can step and are capable of running the full distance when he gets a break. If he ain't fast enough you are going to have to do your build all ovr again thus increasing the chances of losing the ball.
Then you need your creator. Creator is that guy who gets the ball from your ball winner and then give it to your finishers or if you are playing a distributor (guy who takes the ball from creator and pass it to finishers normally)
Then this one can be a bonus or a vital cog in your team. Its your destroyers. The guys that can smash anyone in a tackle. Just to note in 7's there is 0 rucks. So ball chasing flankers like Gill and such are useless in 7's as they do not have the pace to run 90 yards or so without getting caught.

 

[happyjack]

Not really.
On a squad of nine or ten, a team should really have two jumpers, and a second player that can kick at least reasonably well.
Kicker that must be capable of at least making easy conversions. One that can kick of well is also a plus. Then you have your finishers. Guys that can step and are capable of running the full distance when he gets a break. If he ain't fast enough you are going to have to do your build all ovr again thus increasing the chances of losing the ball.
Then you need your creator. Creator is that guy who gets the ball from your ball winner and then give it to your finishers or if you are playing a distributor (guy who takes the ball from creator and pass it to finishers normally)
Then this one can be a bonus or a vital cog in your team. Its your destroyers. The guys that can smash anyone in a tackle. Just to note in 7's there is 0 rucks. So ball chasing flankers like Gill and such are useless in 7's as they do not have the pace to run 90 yards or so without getting caught.

Rassie, you are welcome to your opinion on 7s tactics and all forms of Rugby can be played with varying emphases for differing results, however I would question your claim that there are no rucks in 7s or that Liam Gill is useless in 7s.
Rucks not only exist but their quantity is extremely important in creating off side and space. The contesting of them is critical in regaining possession, at a higher skill level than that which exists in 15s where referees allow indiscretions by the initial players to go unchecked due to the additional player support.
With respect to Liam from his 1st 7s game as a 17 year old in Darwin to his graduation from the Australian 7s team to the Reds he is without peer as a 7s player and would be one of the first players chosen by Michael O'Connor for the RWC if available (reaffirmed in discussion as recently as last Monday).

 

[qwerty51]

Hooper > Gill at 7s

 

[Rassie]

Rassie, you are welcome to your opinion on 7s tactics and all forms of Rugby can be played with varying emphases for differing results, however I would question your claim that there are no rucks in 7s or that Liam Gill is useless in 7s.
Rucks not only exist but their quantity is extremely important in creating off side and space. The contesting of them is critical in regaining possession, at a higher skill level than that which exists in 15s where referees allow indiscretions by the initial players to go unchecked due to the additional player support.
With respect to Liam from his 1st 7s game as a 17 year old in Darwin to his graduation from the Australian 7s team to the Reds he is without peer as a 7s player and would be one of the first players chosen by Michael O'Connor for the RWC if available (reaffirmed in discussion as recently as last Monday).

In 7's he will not be of any use because one of the things needed in 7's is a player that can sprint and make it to the line without being caught up. Gill do not have that pace sorry for saying it but its the truth. There is 0 rucks in Sevens, There is mauls and scrums bt rucks do not exist because the attack have to commit the player that was tackled. Another person to secure the ball and your scrummie where the defense only commits the tackler. So you can work it out yourself you sit with 6 for the defense and 4 guys for the attack. I can assure you next contact you will lose the ball and get put 7 on you . If Gill is outstanding in jumping which is very important for the kick offs then by all means yes. It is one of the areas where one can win the ball and get that valuable possession. But I can assure you will struggle if you have players that can't spint all the way to the other end with a line break. It means you will have to everything over again once he get tackled.

Further more the ability to work under constant pressure is also a important factor.

 

[USARugger]

So are you trying to say that Gill isn't a good 7s player even though he was a staple in the team and one of the standouts at the age of 17?

Breakdowns are unbelievably important in 7s. Nearly every team has a player whose primary role is to contest the breakdown on defense or clear it out quickly on attack. Not sure where you are getting the '0 rucks' thing from at all.

 

[Braveheart81]

It will be interesting to see what sort of impact Foley and Morahan (if it is Morahan) have on our side for the Sevens World Cup.

It will be a good test to see whether players can effectively shift down from Super Rugby and play 7s successfully with a few weeks of training.

Given that we aren't going to have well paid 7s professionals in the next couple of years (certainly before the Olympics) I think this is the most likely way that we will increase talent in our 7s squad.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Not really.
On a squad of nine or ten, a team should really have two jumpers, and a second player that can kick at least reasonably well.
Kicker that must be capable of at least making easy conversions. One that can kick of well is also a plus. Then you have your finishers. Guys that can step and are capable of running the full distance when he gets a break. If he ain't fast enough you are going to have to do your build all ovr again thus increasing the chances of losing the ball.
Then you need your creator. Creator is that guy who gets the ball from your ball winner and then give it to your finishers or if you are playing a distributor (guy who takes the ball from creator and pass it to finishers normally)
Then this one can be a bonus or a vital cog in your team. Its your destroyers. The guys that can smash anyone in a tackle. Just to note in 7's there is 0 rucks. So ball chasing flankers like Gill and such are useless in 7's as they do not have the pace to run 90 yards or so without getting caught.

If it were as similar as you say, Fiji would be absolute World Beaters at 15s - they are not. Not even close.
And if it were so similar, then a country with 'depth' problems like Australia would be naming alot more than One player from the 15s for the coming 7s World Cup... (there is talk of a second, but I don't believe that any Reds player has been actually named as yet)...

Certainly, it does not help that the 7s World Cup is clashing with the Lions Tour - but that is what it is... I do not think that if things had been different, that a greater number of players would have been called-up... Foley is a good player, but I don't see him necessarily turning around the performance of the Oz 7s team...

At the moment, at least, its all just a bit too hard for the ARU to cope with.