Rugby League really gives me the shits
- Thread starter TheRiddler
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I watched it.
It was one of the better Origin games in a long time. Certainly a good spectacle.
boyo
Mark Ella (57)
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Yeah,I watched it as well.
I enjoyed it,it was a good contest.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
No they don't.
I saw the start of the AFL Footy show last night,where they raved about the SOO,and suggested their game should also do it.
I also don't think defence is the point of difference it used to be.
I saw the start of the AFL Footy show last night,where they raved about the SOO,and suggested their game should also do it.
I also don't think defence is the point of difference it used to be.
Rob42
John Solomon (38)
Yes, those last 20 min reminded me of the 2011 RWC quarter-final against RSA - endless attacks by QLD and endless disparate defence by NSW. A great spectacle, especially if you avoid the commentary.
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T
Train Without a Station
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I find the comment that the Wallaby's could learn a bit about defence from it odd.
I watched the game closely and all I could see was:
* Attaching players constantly drifting sideways before shovelling the ball, never engaging and committing defenders - The fact that close to 6 NSW players tackled Slater in the last play is proof of this. There were 6 men there because they were able to just drift off instead of being committed;
* Poor defence like Hayne's try when he beat 2 terrible attempts at once, then got up and rolled over the line beating another 3 attempts. Players constantly trying to grab, instead of tackle - the first NSW try was a direct result of a winger, leaving his man to attempt to be the second tackler on the man inside of him; and
* Almost no attempt to construct play - Constantly one tackle they would attack one way, then the next the other way without any seeming plan for breaking down the defensive structure.
Am I being to harsh?
That being said there were some great runs, great hits and great examples of athleticism.
I watched the game closely and all I could see was:
* Attaching players constantly drifting sideways before shovelling the ball, never engaging and committing defenders - The fact that close to 6 NSW players tackled Slater in the last play is proof of this. There were 6 men there because they were able to just drift off instead of being committed;
* Poor defence like Hayne's try when he beat 2 terrible attempts at once, then got up and rolled over the line beating another 3 attempts. Players constantly trying to grab, instead of tackle - the first NSW try was a direct result of a winger, leaving his man to attempt to be the second tackler on the man inside of him; and
* Almost no attempt to construct play - Constantly one tackle they would attack one way, then the next the other way without any seeming plan for breaking down the defensive structure.
Am I being to harsh?
That being said there were some great runs, great hits and great examples of athleticism.
Rugby league involves far less one on one tackles than union does so it's harder to compare.
There are far more huge collisions because that is how the game is structured.
I think league players are generally good tacklers but often not the best defenders.
There are far more huge collisions because that is how the game is structured.
I think league players are generally good tacklers but often not the best defenders.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
I disagree. The skill of tackling has been diminished due to gang tackling.
Growing up as a leaguie, my main gripe is this overstructuring of the game by coaches like it's NFL. Mostly to reduce error and make the game more coach-able.
Growing up as a leaguie, my main gripe is this overstructuring of the game by coaches like it's NFL. Mostly to reduce error and make the game more coach-able.
It's a different tackling skill though because of how important it is to have someone wrapped around the ball to prevent offloads.
As offloading becomes more and more important in rugby union, we might see more league style wrapping around the ball. Harder to do though because there are less opportunities to have multiple tacklers.
The league backs make more of the one on one tackles and some of them are excellent tacklers. Michael Jennings for example is a good text book tackler.
Anyway, I enjoyed the game. It went down to the wire and there were some good moments.
I think union and league are very different sports and although there are a wide variety of crossover skills it is hard to make direct comparisons between the two.
As offloading becomes more and more important in rugby union, we might see more league style wrapping around the ball. Harder to do though because there are less opportunities to have multiple tacklers.
The league backs make more of the one on one tackles and some of them are excellent tacklers. Michael Jennings for example is a good text book tackler.
Anyway, I enjoyed the game. It went down to the wire and there were some good moments.
I think union and league are very different sports and although there are a wide variety of crossover skills it is hard to make direct comparisons between the two.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
But isn't that wrapping up fairly new, and a technique introduced by the Storm as a way to slow the play-the-ball? They even brought in John Danaher, Georges St. Pierre's mma jiu-jitsu coach, to teach them grappling techniques. And that's led to other teams bringing in wrestling coaches, and turning it into something more like greco-roman rugby.
I've only watched a little bit of Super League, and although it's not always as athletically spectacular and many of the games are blow-outs, there isn't as much grappling in the tackle and there are more one-on-one tackles with decent tackling technique. So it seems to be more of an NRL thing.
Put it this way: If you're defending one-on-one against a runner in open space, if there isn't an attacking support runner and if you try to grapple the person down, you're giving that runner more of a chance to pull free and make a break. And that's something you see more and more of in league -- grappling, arm tackles that are easily broken if there aren't three tacklers there do to it. I remember Israel Folau losing a few tackles early on in his switch to rugby because he was tackling like that.
But isn't there a trade-off there? If you need three people at the ruck to grapple the ball-carrier down, that would seem to leave at least two other holes in the defense to exploit -- they have to get back into place for the next play-the-ball, so it'd seem like a good idea to get as quick a play-the-ball as possible and go after those areas. But more often than it seems the play-the-ball just leads to another forward hit-up in the center of wherever the play-the-ball took place. Here's an example:
I'm not a big league fan. I'm not even in a rugby country, I'm in the states, but the rabid fascination with league in Australia and northern England fascinated me. I figured there must be something to the game I'm missing, so I've watched quite a bit. Last year I tried something with the Rabbitohs-Warriors game: For every tackle, I counted how many passes occurred before that tackle was ended. I wanted to see if there was a pattern. (I actually made a spreadsheet, but I don't think I have it anymore -- it was just an easier way to look at the data.)
The Warriors were a bit more random than the Rabbitohs, but in general, there was about one or occasionally maybe two passes for the first three tackles, then they'd try to string some phases together for the fourth, maybe go for two passes on the fifth, and then kick. So they weren't even really trying to exploit space except for on the fourth tackle; they were were just taking the ball into contact and playing an attritional game, trying to wear down the defense rather than unlock them.
Add the grappling to that one-pass-and-hit-up plan, and you get a fairly stolid game. And the offense and defense, seem to be working in a weird kind of collusion: The offense isn't exploiting the space as effectively as it could, so it's not creating the need for many open-field tackles. And the defense is swarming and grappling the ball-carrier after one or two passes anyway, and their focus is so much more on grappling the ball-carrier down that their other tackling skills become lax, which results in arm tackles that give a ball carrier more opportunity to break from if they're not brought down right away -- especially if they're on the wing. It's like they've tacitly agreed to just pummel within five meters of the play-the-ball, and every now and then try a little open play.
Look, I know I don't understand league nearly well enough to make any real statements about it, but what the hell: If I were coaching a team (never happen), I'd try to string more phases together between tackles and retain possession for the five tackles as long as possible, exploiting space off quick play-the-balls and attacking places where a tackler just had to run back to, and either pass or offload before or at the beginning of the tackle. And on defense I'd want no more than two guys on the tackle, and would prefer the tackles to be hard open-field hits that bring the ball-carrier down quickly enough that even if an off-load gets free, it's so crooked the defense has as much a chance at it as the offense.
But it's not like grappling isn't already going on in rugby. It's just occurring more at the ruck than the tackle. But because the ruck is a different monster in rugby, quick ball and what can be done with it presents different opportunities for both the offense and the defense. It doesn't seem to lend itself to the grapple-tackle game of greco-roman rugby, because you're already working on the ground and that's factored into play. The grapple in league seems more like a way to create a false sort of ruck rather than one that actually results in a contest for the ball.
And if that kind of grapple-tackling would work in rugby, wouldn't it have already been introduced in sevens? That seems to be closer to the open game that league presents itself as, and it's plenty fast, but they still tackle.
Man, I don't even know if this is making any sense. I just finished watching the first SOO game, and aside from a few decent moments where passes were strung together, it looked about the same as any other NRL game: play-the-ball, pass, hit-up, play-the-ball, pass, hit-up, play-the-ball...
Scoey
Tony Shaw (54)
I watched it and it was a pretty good game as far as League goes. I have one massive gripe though. As the game neared the end, it should have been building to a big finish. It didn't. The constant stoppages with time off for everyone to realign, get a drink, catch their breath etc. was shocking and made the last 10 minutes in particular really frustrating to watch. Farrah had a cramp so the game stopped. He got a rub, everyone had a drink, the defence got set up, QLD's momentum was halted and when everyone was ready, play recommenced. Again when Tate was getting a cut cleaned up, time was blown off, everyone had a breather and when they were all good and ready they resumed. Fuck me. Just let the game go! Had the game been left to run, it probably would've opened up big time in that last 10 as the players were exhausted. That would've been good to watch!
Most people and media outlets have agreed that it was a pretty bloody good game of footy. Well, I can tell you, if I ever hear a League fan bag Union on the basis that it is too stop/start and has to many penalty goals, I will point them to last nights apparent, great game. Then ending was littered with completely stoppages and the game was decided by 2 penalty goals.
I also have a minor gripe. The NRL are kidding themselves if the tip tackle on Tate isn't a red card. It was an ugly ugly tackle and could've been a disaster as no one had control of the situation. This crap that Origin is played under a set of more relaxed rules is a joke; a disgrace.
Most people and media outlets have agreed that it was a pretty bloody good game of footy. Well, I can tell you, if I ever hear a League fan bag Union on the basis that it is too stop/start and has to many penalty goals, I will point them to last nights apparent, great game. Then ending was littered with completely stoppages and the game was decided by 2 penalty goals.
I also have a minor gripe. The NRL are kidding themselves if the tip tackle on Tate isn't a red card. It was an ugly ugly tackle and could've been a disaster as no one had control of the situation. This crap that Origin is played under a set of more relaxed rules is a joke; a disgrace.
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Re your massive gripe: the time off for everything in the last 10 min is an attempt to stop all the time-wasting that used to occur. It has, of course, led to the off-the-clock time-wasting you refer to in lieu of the on-the-clock time wasting that used to occur. In other words, all that's changed is that the clock stops.
Re your minor gripe, I'd actually class it as my major: shocking tackle, but only 1 player on report when both should've been & he's going to appeal the grading which if successful means he's eligible for SOO2 in 3 weeks. Ludicrous, esp given all the hand-wringing & promises of tougher penalties etc after the poor bugger from the Knights got at least temporarily paralysed by a tackle that wasn't half as dangerous. Still, Origin is Origin & a different set of rules will apply until some poor bugger has his spine snapped exclusively live on 9.
EDIT: downgrade appeal successful so no suspension. Apparently at least in part 'cos he let go & it was the other bloke, the one who didn't get reported, who finished the job. FFS.
Re your minor gripe, I'd actually class it as my major: shocking tackle, but only 1 player on report when both should've been & he's going to appeal the grading which if successful means he's eligible for SOO2 in 3 weeks. Ludicrous, esp given all the hand-wringing & promises of tougher penalties etc after the poor bugger from the Knights got at least temporarily paralysed by a tackle that wasn't half as dangerous. Still, Origin is Origin & a different set of rules will apply until some poor bugger has his spine snapped exclusively live on 9.
EDIT: downgrade appeal successful so no suspension. Apparently at least in part 'cos he let go & it was the other bloke, the one who didn't get reported, who finished the job. FFS.
I watched a fair bit of it, without the sound, and honestly, taking the bellowing hype-r-bole of the Ch 9 comms away, it was hardly "best ever" anything. I'm not knocking League for the sake of it, but the carry-on in the papers today that this was some sort of classic is just hubristic rubbish.
Yeah, it was a decent game and a close contest, but there was some awful one-on-one defence at times too. The 3 man gang tackle looks great, but the actual technical proficiency that makes it happen is agricultural at best.
And on a side note, why do they let the attacking team's trainers run around behind the players directing traffic? I thought all these guys were awesome footballing demigods? Why do they need a guy who looks like he calls the meat-tray raffle at Panthers telling them where to be?
boyo
Mark Ella (57)
something something think, something something do, something something run, something something tackle
I know. It's ridiculous having these on field coaches running on and off the field as they please. One of them even signalled for a penalty kick for goal for NSW!
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