School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Hugh Jarse]

To answer Lee Grant's question, I think the usual rules should apply with regard naming boys on scholarship: ie if it is in the public domain and readily available then by all means talk about Player X and the Scholarship in the one breath.

Many "scholarships" are partial (25%, 50% or 75%) or some variation thereof.

Many kids (and parents) may claim to be on a scholarship or full scholarship when they are not. It is good for the self esteem. Publishing their name of the child when you may not be in full possession of all the facts would be inappropriate.

Some kids who are good athletes just happen to lob up at School X in Year 10 or 11 because that is all the family can afford. The kid may coincidentally have played rep rugby the previous year. It can happen.

Sometimes other relatives chip in and help to fund a couple of years school fees in year 11 and 12. Is this a scholarship? Should that kid be named and shamed because he is better than Oliver Two-Dads who has been the flanker in the 13A, 14A, 15A, and 16A's before Jason Kinonlyafford-Twoyearsfees rocked up in year 11.

It is not unheard of for a Mungo club, or AFL club to pay fees for a kid while they are at school. Thus is rare, but I am lead to believe that it does happen.

There is the situation similar to that above where a third party stumps up the full tariff for a child to attend a certain school. Someone has posted a hypothetical about James Packer stumping up the fees for a couple of lads to attend a school. They may be mates from old days that have played footy with his boy while younger or he may have been "shopping" at the PSSA or NSW JRU State champs for some boys to fill gaps in the school team. Again pretty rare but plausible. The QLD case appears to be of that nature.

Is there much the Head of School can do about Child X lobbing up to his school with a fist full of dollars ready to gain an education?

Deliberate rorting of the rules by Schools who have agreed to uphold a certain code of ethics should be outed.

Individual naming should be discouraged without corroborating evidence, and remember Gaggerland rules about kids -

2. Speak respectfully about the players

Change: "Lazy fat bugger with no rugby brains"
To: "Needs to come off his wing and get more involved"

 

[Lee Grant]

Individual naming should be discouraged without corroborating evidence.

The question then arises: what is corroborating evidence?

But even if a poster has a copy of a letter from the school formalising the scholarship (as unlikely as that would be) should we name, say, a 16 y.o. boy who has received such, in a public forum?

The more I consider the matter, the more I think that a boy's name should not be mentioned.
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

If a parent posts on here that "I am the parent of John Smith and he is now attending St Cutherson's School after receiving the Atcherson-Smyth Memorial Scholarship" then that would be corroborating evidence. If the scholarship boys are named on the school web site, or published in a magazine or in the programme at Rugby awards Dinner then that is evidence which is in the public domain.

These are all highly unlikely, so it is best to speak in veiled references to the individuals, particularly while they are still attending school.

I think the general feeling is that it is no fault of the family or the child that they may be getting some fee relief, however we are generally commenting on the behaviour of the school that may knowingly be breaching their association rules.

Here is a question (perhaps even moot). If it is against the rules to offer inducements to enroll, and worse when that happens in yr 11 or Yr 12, Is it against the rules to offer fee relief/bursary/scholarship to a boy for year 11/12 if that boy has been at that school since year 7 and paying full fares?

 

[fairplay]

The question then arises: what is corroborating evidence?

But even if a poster has a copy of a letter from the school formalising the scholarship (as unlikely as that would be) should we name, say, a 16 y.o. boy who has received such, in a public forum?

The more I consider the matter, the more I think that a boy's name should not be mentioned.
.

I think it is also the context of the articles.
If somebody is simply listing the line-ups and mentioning new players to the program, then naming is unavoidable.
But if someone is focusing the article on the wrongs and rights of a particular program then the boys names should perhaps be avoided within that article.
A fine line....

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not all boys who transfer school are on a scholarship, and to suggest such would be inappropriate.

I know of a family who were simply sick of the situation that their boys were in at a CAS school, and they decided to move their boys to NEW in year 9 or 8, along with several other kids from that school. One of those boys is in 1st XV and the others are in 4ths and 6th or similar. They are all paying full fares. The team listing, with a year of entry to the school other than year 7 could be interpreted by some as Scholarship. One lad from that same CAS School is now performing rather well at Joeys from all accounts. Again no reason to believe he is on any form of subsidy to attend Joeys, even though he did not start there with a year 7 cohort.

A Gentleman I met at U16's last year said that his boy would be changing from a 2012 CCC school to Joeys this year, because his Grandparents would be paying and that was all that they could afford - they apparently had a reasonable tribe of grandies to fund. The boy is a decent footballer and I saw his name in one of the rep teams this year with school listed as Joeys. When he makes 1st XV, his year of entry to the school would say Year 10.

 

[TheKing]

Just want to issue an apology here about the naming of the player in question. His appearance at Churchie had raised a lot of eyebrows on the Queensland GPS forum due to his representative selection history, which was exaggerated further by the fact that he still hadn't been recruited by a major school. Sadly in Queensland representative players outside of the GPS and to a lesser extent the AIC competitions tend to be absorbed in to those competitions after playing well in national and state tournaments. Boy X was one such example of a State School boy with rep selection.

He started at Churchie two weeks in to term 3, and just 6 weeks before the Queensland school-leavers exam, the QCST. Because he can only complete a certain amount of subjects units for his new school before the test, he is bound to the fate of his old school on the test, rendering his leaving the school pointless. This leaves the question as to why join a different school so late, and just at the start of their Rugby season if not to play.

The GPS headmasters had a handshake agreement not to bring in new students in to grade 12 for the purpose of playing rugby, let alone in to the second last term to play. When he was allowed to play on the weekend it raised a lot of ire in the community as to how a presumed scholarship boy could be eligible.

I found out this afternoon after having a chat with a former Queensland player that a former Wallaby and Churchie father (I do know the name but I think it would be wise to keep it to myself in these circumstances) had paid the boy's school fees in full to allow him to compete in the season. The Queensland player was a churchie underage team coach's best friend, and he revealed it to him.

Pretty daft move made by myself to name the player, but my excitement got the better of me after hearing the story. And sorry for the shitty syntax, I've had a big day.

 

[TheKing]

This is just some work I did previously on the QLD forum that's quite appropriate for this one, so I thought I might share it.

I'm not insinuating that these players are on scholarships, I've just stated the fact that many of them have left their old schools and are now attending GPS schools. This is the squad list for the Queensland U/16 Red and White teams of 2012. I've highlighted the names to correspond with teams. No points for guessing who played for which team.

2. Alex MAFI, Nudgee 1st XV
3. Gavin LUKA, Keebra Park SHS Nudgee 1st XV
6. Jayden RODWELL, Nudgee 1st XV
8. Maclean JONES, Nudgee 1st XV
9. Eli PILZ, Coolum SHS Nudgee 1st XV
10. James TUTTLE, Nudgee 1st XV
12. Calvin PRITCHARD, Nudgee 1st XV
Assistant Coach, Anthony CONNELLAN, Nudgee First XV

1. Paulo LELEISIUAO, Nudgee 2nd XV
2. Jacob Penesi, Nudgee 2nd XV
14. Tyrone HUSSEY, Nudgee 2nd XV

4. Darcy LEYLAND, Palm Beach Currumbin SHS Brisbane Boys College 1st XV
7. Kareem TUUGA Palm Beach Currumbin SHS Brisbane Boys College 1st XV
8. Bronson TUAKUPULU Brisbane Boys College 1st XV
10. Nathan RUSSELL, Brisbane Boys College 1st XV

3. Stuart MCCREIGHT, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV
4. Dalton COX, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV
8. Trey KEMP, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV
10. Fergus HALLIDAY, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV
14. Dan FORSYTH, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV
15. Matt MARSDEN, Brisbane Grammar School 1st XV

1. Robert GREEN, Gregory Terrace First XV
4. Ben LAXON, Gregory Terrace First XV
7. Toby MCNAMEE, Gregory Terrace First XV
8. Daniel SITANELEI, Gregory Terrace First XV

6. PJ. VANDENBERG, The Southport School
8. Joel BROWN, The Southport School, Gold Coast Eagles
11. Isaac NATHAN, The Southport School First XV
14. Fred DORROUGH, The Southport School

3. Richie ASIATA, John Paul College Churchie First XV
8 Harley FOX, St Edmunds College Churchie First XV
10. Mack MASON, Downlands College Churchie First XV
13. Izaiah PERESE, St Edmunds CollegeChurchie 1st XV
Coach, Jason GILMORE, Toowoomba Grammar School Churchie First XV

8. Jamason SCHULTZ, Ipswich Grammar School First XV

3. James MCCOLL, Toowoomba Grammar School
4. Mitch O'HARA, Toowoomba Grammar School
6. Darcy MAROSKE, Toowoomba Grammar School
12. Harry WATHEN, Toowoomba Grammar School
13. Liam JURD, Toowoomba Grammar School First XV
14. Josh ROBINSON, Toowoomba Grammar School

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just want to issue an apology here about the naming of the player in question.

Etc etc etc

That story is the worst I have heard.
Frankly, since the kid seemingly gets no academic benefit from being at the school, I can't even see what's in it for him.
I have found that the obsession with winning school premierships is inverse to what a person did in their own playing days.
I am, therefore, very surprised that a former Wallaby old boy would step in at the last minute where the benefit to the kid is hard to see.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Quick Hands]

That story is the worst I have heard.
Frankly, since the kid seemingly gets no academic benefit from being at the school, I can't even see what's in it for him.
I have found that the obsession with winning school premierships is inverse to what a person did in their own playing days.
I am, therefore, very surprised that a former Wallaby old boy would step in at the last minute where the benefit to the kid is hard to see.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The "benefit" seems entirely to go to the rugby side of the school concerned. No academic benefit to the boy, not even a rugby benefit as he's already been noticed and a few weeks coaching at ACGS is hardly going to make much difference. To think that educated adults in charge of schools act like this is appalling.

 

[I like to watch]

The bit I just don't understand, is how is this behaviour tolerated by paying parents.
I chose to send my kids to a School that shared my values.

There are obviously many more property developers,used car salesmen and lawyers with enough coin to pay the fees than I thought.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The bit I just don't understand, is how is this behaviour tolerated by paying parents.
I chose to send my kids to a School that shared my values.

There are obviously many more property developers,used car salesmen and lawyers with enough coin to pay the fees than I thought.

Not sure I would get into the pigeonholing but I wonder WTF anyone really thinks a GPS or other school premiership means in the broad scheme of life - something to reminisce over?
I reminisce about the non-premiership seasons just as much as the premiership seasons - maybe more because i learnt more

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think some of these issues are as cut and dry as people make out.

The concept of private scholarships are increasing in private schools across the country and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

We have a wealthy client at work who has a charitable trust that provides the opportunity for a few students each year to attend a prestigious private school in Sydney (it's a girls' school so don't worry, he's not boosting a GPS rugby schoool!). Now the scholarships he is effectively providing are for highly academic girls from a lower socio-economic background but if he wanted to do it for other reasons I don't see any problem with that.

At the end of the day, the motive isn't necessarily to stack the odds in the favour of their favourite school. Many people are parting with their hard earned cash because they feel like they can provide an opportunity to someone who wouldn't be otherwise able to have that opportunity.

 

[I like to watch]

That is a totally different issue to a School attending the state champs purely to identify and recruit mercenaries to play in their first xv for the next few years.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't think some of these issues are as cut and dry as people make out.

The concept of private scholarships are increasing in private schools across the country and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

We have a wealthy client at work who has a charitable trust that provides the opportunity for a few students each year to attend a prestigious private school in Sydney (it's a girls' school so don't worry, he's not boosting a GPS rugby schoool!). Now the scholarships he is effectively providing are for highly academic girls from a lower socio-economic background but if he wanted to do it for other reasons I don't see any problem with that.

At the end of the day, the motive isn't necessarily to stack the odds in the favour of their favourite school. Many people are parting with their hard earned cash because they feel like they can provide an opportunity to someone who wouldn't be otherwise able to have that opportunity.

and what if the school used his largesse to go and grab the 5 biggest hopes in year 10 from the selective high schools just so they could say how well they did on their website?

 

[Braveheart81]

and what if the school used his largesse to go and grab the 5 biggest hopes in year 10 from the selective high schools just so they could say how well they did on their website?

It's a bit chicken and egg though. Almost by definition, a recipient of a scholarship will improve the standard in whichever field they've been awarded a scholarship for.

Should a school not celebrate the success of a student regardless of how they ended up at that school?

I certainly get your point regarding selective poaching of top performers, but can you effectively limit the offering of scholarships (of any form) to a passive advertisement or post on a website? Does it cross the line when a school approaches specific people and asks them to submit an application if they're interested?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's a bit chicken and egg though. Almost by definition, a recipient of a scholarship will improve the standard in whichever field they've been awarded a scholarship for.

Should a school not celebrate the success of a student regardless of how they ended up at that school?

I certainly get your point regarding selective poaching of top performers, but can you effectively limit the offering of scholarships (of any form) to a passive advertisement or post on a website? Does it cross the line when a school approaches specific people and asks them to submit an application if they're interested?

No you cant.
But you can lament the school taking credit for a kid who had produced long before she came to the school - particularly if it is done in substitution for developing what you already have: i.e. giving the paying parents what they pay for!

 

[deansy]

The situation with the QLD GPS is that schools are trying to prevent the BGS & GT blow outs from a few years ago. Now all schools need to join the so called 'arms race' just to be competitive & in fact not to put out a 1st XV team or even under age teams with boys that dont have the ability & could end up with a serious injury.
Being competitve & winning at all costs has now blurred the QLD GPS protocols that were agreed between the headmasters.
Scholarships are a good thing , providing the boys embrace the school the culture & nuture the contacts they have made during their schooling years, as they will be greatful after their rugby comes to an end. What not is a good thing is boys brought in their senior years to play rugby & dont give a rats bum about education or the school. There has to be some balance & the scholarship table is only open at the start of the schooling year & perhaps only one or two sporting scholarships at beginning of the senior year.
The QLD GPS headmasters need to get real grow some B's & stop the repaeat of what we have just seen over the last few weeks. One school is playing by the rules & others are not!!

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't think some of these issues are as cut and dry as people make out.

The concept of private scholarships are increasing in private schools across the country and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

We have a wealthy client at work who has a charitable trust that provides the opportunity for a few students each year to attend a prestigious private school in Sydney (it's a girls' school so don't worry, he's not boosting a GPS rugby schoool!). Now the scholarships he is effectively providing are for highly academic girls from a lower socio-economic background but if he wanted to do it for other reasons I don't see any problem with that.

At the end of the day, the motive isn't necessarily to stack the odds in the favour of their favourite school. Many people are parting with their hard earned cash because they feel like they can provide an opportunity to someone who wouldn't be otherwise able to have that opportunity.

What needs to be remembered is that the AAGPS is just that. It is an umbrella for schools to play games against each other. There is no competition between them in music, academic and other facets of school life. The schools themselves decided that recruitment of sportsmen, by scholarship or other inducement, should not form part of any school's enrolment policies. The obvious reason is that sport is but one aspect of schooling and that the boys who are ordinarily enrolled at each school should be able to compete against each other and thus the results will be randomly spread during good and not so good years.

The example given from Queensland is almost too appalling for words. He won't sit any exams at the school (Qld don't have external HSC type exams), he'll only be there one term so he probably won't learn much either, he'll barely get to know the boys that he plays with, he'll receive little rugby development and he'll have spent 10 weeks out of 12 years at the school. One assumes that most of his friends and social group are at his formers school.

What benefit does this boy receive from spending ONE TERM at ACGS?

Shame, shame, shame!

 

[Dark Shark]

Not sure I would get into the pigeonholing but I wonder WTF anyone really thinks a GPS or other school premiership means in the broad scheme of life - something to reminisce over?
I reminisce about the non-premiership seasons just as much as the premiership seasons - maybe more because i learnt more

I have two brothers-in-law who attended a GPS School in Brisbane. Both played First XV for their school. One brother-in-law was in a team that won the First XV premiership, the other was in a team that lost two games and finished around third.

Over the last 20 years I have witnessed no remarkable difference in the outcomes during post school life for these guys. There was definitely no door that magically opened for one and not the other. Their career and personal achievements since school were all a result of the hard work and effort they put in to those particular areas and not as a result of a rugby match score.

Gees, neither of them even reminisce. They both probably learned some great life lessons playing school rugby but neither would say that was due to the end result on a premiership table.

 

[Quick Hands]

I have two brothers-in-law who attended a GPS School in Brisbane. Both played First XV for their school. One brother-in-law was in a team that won the First XV premiership, the other was in a team that lost two games and finished around third.

Over the last 20 years I have witnessed no remarkable difference in the outcomes during post school life for these guys. There was definitely no door that magically opened for one and not the other. Their career and personal achievements since school were all a result of the hard work and effort they put in to those particular areas and not as a result of a rugby match score.

Gees, neither of them even reminisce. They both probably learned some great life lessons playing school rugby but neither would say that was due to the end result on a premiership table.

Because it's not the triumph it's the struggle (together in a team sport).