• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

School sporting scholarships/recruitment

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
Like I said in my post I don't have a problem with Kurtley Beale having gone thru on a Scholarship fantastic opportunity for him. Entirely consistent with previous posts I have made regarding boys and parents taking up opportunities presented to them.

I also believe things have gone too far in the process of catching up.

However if David Kirk is going to take the stance he has taken he should deliver the same criticism to Joeys, he elected to kick for touch.
Ken.. KEN... KKKKEEEEEENNNNNN

Answer the question I posed in the last paragraph of post #1732 please

By your wish to try and discredit a boy that started in Yr 7 to defend the player that started in Yr 10/11/12You really are missing it aren't you.
Now, by the indifference that show to this, how do feel honestly that you have players in your first XV that have wished to leave and go to different pastures, because they can earn money, now staying because of a stipend to them?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
There are also a fair few boys who attend school from year 7 paying full tariff that focus on their athletic endeavours with the school similarly not improving the educational outcome for the child.

I would say that many of the Scholarship boys that I am aware of actually hit the books quite hard at their new schools. The worm has also turned away from producing elite but dumb jocks in the various Gold squads and academies around the place. Manu and the Koala Club insist on educational progress being made. I am hearing the same sort of messages coming from the other "elite" programmes as well.

The behaviour of the Wallaby Three Muppeteers may actually have a positive impact on the what is in the programmes that the future talented athletes undergo.

Huh?
So if a sporting kid,whose parents are paying full freight does not study hard,that makes it OK for Schools bring in the imports?
I would say that many of the Scholarship boys I know,hardly study at all.
It is a crock of shit that the Koala Club has any educational minimum standards,measured by either results or effort.
The three muppeteers have just demonstrated that if you are good enough,the rules rarely apply to you.
 

Tahspark

Ted Thorn (20)
Snip...

I know this is probably no the place to mention such a topic, but I have heard noises coming out of Stanmore that a number of parents are quite disgruntled with the current recruitment drive. In particular, the parents of boys who have attended Newington since prep school. These boys put on the hallowed black and white jersey week in, week out for years - training their arses off. Only in Year 11 to find out that their dream to play in the school's First XV has been all but shattered by a boy who is on a scholarship, who may never play the game of rugby union after school. I know there are many benefits of scholarships, but when they are the core of a marketing strategy - First XV premiership = $$$$ - it is hard to justify their existence.

Further to @biggameplayer's above post #2077 in the Sydney GPS 2013 thread, a relative of mine recounted to me that she heard a rather spirited discussion involving Newington parents discussing their concerns to similar effect on the sideline at a recent GPS match.

It would seem that the drums are beating out Stanmore way...
 

Spieber

Bob Loudon (25)
how do feel honestly that you have players in your first XV that have wished to leave and go to different pastures, because they can earn money, now staying because of a stipend to them?
What kind of stipend or "contractual" obligation are these boys under? What is stopping them returning to Toyota Cup or whatever competition it is they prefer? I guess missing State of Origin must hurt for the Toyota Twins.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Huh?
So if a sporting kid,whose parents are paying full freight does not study hard,that makes it OK for Schools bring in the imports?
I would say that many of the Scholarship boys I know,hardly study at all.
It is a crock of shit that the Koala Club has any educational minimum standards,measured by either results or effort.
The three muppeteers have just demonstrated that if you are good enough,the rules rarely apply to you.



So if a sporting kid,whose parents are paying full freight does not study hard,that makes it OK for Schools bring in the imports?
Never said it was OK, just made the observation that it is not only the subsidised students that arrive in Senior college Schools who complete school without having made much in the way of "improving the educational outcome for the child".

I would say that many of the Scholarship boys I know,hardly study at all.
Then we must know different Scholarship boys then. We can both be correct. Many of the non-scholarship boys hardly study at all.
I know of kids who are put in contact with tutors and mentors to help them to meet study expectations. Different schools may have different approaches to managing the educational outcomes of the child.

Koala Club Minimum Academic standards.
Never claimed that they had minimum academic standards for NGS, or the academies.

I have had several parents tell me that Manu and Hugh told them at the NGS briefing that they expected the kids to continue to study hard at school while in the programme and they kids would not be penalised if they missed sessions for academic reasons. HPU also put the boys through a life coaching module where the benefits of being successful with their studies is stressed. Maybe my original choice of "insist" was a little strong. The parents seemed happy to think that Manu was serious about the kids continuing to work hard at their studies.

The 3 Muppeteers impact.
At Open Schoolboys and U16's the ARU run life skills modules covering Use of Social media, Texts, Alcohol, drugs, behavioural expectations. NGS and JGS do similar.

The academic progress of kids on Sydney Uni scholarship, Gordon (UTS) and Randwick (UNSW) are also very actively monitored. Parents tell me that they have been told that if their kid is struggling to cope with their studies, that the clubs will try to help with mentors and assist to find the right tutors to make sure that the boys progress their studies. These kids have been told that they will lose their scholarships if they do not pass their studies. There are consequences.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Paul Keating: "In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it's trying"

When my boys were in Under 9's and Under 10's, there was a lot of debate that larger boys should play Weight for Age grades with many parents calling for these regulations to be implemented. The parents from Team A (with some big boys) seldom agreed that Weight for Age would be useful. The parents from Team B (with no big boys) funnily enough were advocates of Weight For Age.

As this cohort progressed up the age groups and Rep Footy came into the frame, the Team B parents still maintained the rage for Weight for Age, but were the first to ask if Johnny and Henry (Big boys from Team A) were in the Rep team with their precious Oliver's and Sam's. They seemed to be very happy to see Johnny and Henry run rampant over the smaller boys from the other Districts and were not backward in coming forward to say how good Johnny and Henry were. There was no Weight for Age concern for the boys from the other districts. There was a State Championship medal at stake for Oliver and Sam.

Fast forward to High School. Newington apparently has some boys in their rugby team that were not there in Year 7. These boys are apparently good rugby players. Newington are in breach of the code of conduct of the AAGPS which states "...no scholarships.." or words to the same general effect. It has been quoted enough that most are familiar with the exact wording and intent of the statement. There is also little point in summarising the arguments for and against as we are all very familiar with them.

Come the Inter-association representative season, who are the first boys listed in the keyboard selectors GPS I teams?
Surely not. Not the evil nasty rule-breaking imported boys?

Coming to my point. If AAGPS Principals were serious about compliance with their code of conduct then they would not select any boy in their AAGPS representative team that was at one of the schools, playing 1st XV for their school, who was there under conditions that were in breach of the AAGPS agreement about "scholarships".

It is common knowledge that there are boys on sporting scholarships at certain schools. Headmasters from schools that do not offer scholarships are on the public record noting that these exist, and that they are not in the best interests of the association. What do they actually do about it? They clearly know that it exists yet apart from making pious statements in newsletters and on web sites they do NOTHING.

Do they celebrate success of the AAGPS representative rugby team over CAS and CHS in the representative season?

Do they allow boys that they know, or suspect, may be at one of their member schools in breach of the "no inducements" clause be selected to represent the Association?

Are the boys (and parents) from non-importing schools prepared to boycott selection into a Representative team that has players that have been induced to a AAGPS school?

Would the principled anti-scholarship parents accept that AAGPS may end up regularly losing Inter-Association games because of a stand on anti-scholarship principles?
Are they the Team B parents from the Under 11's?
As long as we are winning, why should there be any level playing field or why should the rules apply to us?

Are the parents and Principals from the alleged non-scholarship schools first order hypocrites with a healthy case of double standards ?
 

Kenny Powers

Ron Walden (29)
Ken.. KEN. KKKKEEEEEENNNNNN

Answer the question I posed in the last paragraph of post #1732 please

By your wish to try and discredit a boy that started in Yr 7 to defend the player that started in Yr 10/11/12You really are missing it aren't you.
Now, by the indifference that show to this, how do feel honestly that you have players in your first XV that have wished to leave and go to different pastures, because they can earn money, now staying because of a stipend to them?

Happy to comment on a financial transaction, just need more information payee and payor would be good start as well as value. The more information you can provide the better, if enough is provided I may even be able to offer up some tax advice.

I did not disrespect KB (Kurtley Beale) in any way. The point being made is that if you are going to have a debate about scholarships or write an article about it as per David Kirk, Joeys needs to take its place in that debate and have its actions scrutinised to paint a complete picture.
 

Think About Rugby

Allen Oxlade (6)
Paul Keating: "In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it's trying"

When my boys were in Under 9's and Under 10's, there was a lot of debate that larger boys should play Weight for Age grades with many parents calling for these regulations to be implemented. The parents from Team A (with some big boys) seldom agreed that Weight for Age would be useful. The parents from Team B (with no big boys) funnily enough were advocates of Weight For Age.

As this cohort progressed up the age groups and Rep Footy came into the frame, the Team B parents still maintained the rage for Weight for Age, but were the first to ask if Johnny and Henry (Big boys from Team A) were in the Rep team with their precious Oliver's and Sam's. They seemed to be very happy to see Johnny and Henry run rampant over the smaller boys from the other Districts and were not backward in coming forward to say how good Johnny and Henry were. There was no Weight for Age concern for the boys from the other districts. There was a State Championship medal at stake for Oliver and Sam.

Fast forward to High School. Newington apparently has some boys in their rugby team that were not there in Year 7. These boys are apparently good rugby players. Newington are in breach of the code of conduct of the AAGPS which states ".no scholarships.." or words to the same general effect. It has been quoted enough that most are familiar with the exact wording and intent of the statement. There is also little point in summarising the arguments for and against as we are all very familiar with them.

Come the Inter-association representative season, who are the first boys listed in the keyboard selectors GPS I teams?
Surely not. Not the evil nasty rule-breaking imported boys?

Coming to my point. If AAGPS Principals were serious about compliance with their code of conduct then they would not select any boy in their AAGPS representative team that was at one of the schools, playing 1st XV for their school, who was there under conditions that were in breach of the AAGPS agreement about "scholarships".

It is common knowledge that there are boys on sporting scholarships at certain schools. Headmasters from schools that do not offer scholarships are on the public record noting that these exist, and that they are not in the best interests of the association. What do they actually do about it? They clearly know that it exists yet apart from making pious statements in newsletters and on web sites they do NOTHING.

Do they celebrate success of the AAGPS representative rugby team over CAS and CHS in the representative season?

Do they allow boys that they know, or suspect, may be at one of their member schools in breach of the "no inducements" clause be selected to represent the Association?

Are the boys (and parents) from non-importing schools prepared to boycott selection into a Representative team that has players that have been induced to a AAGPS school?

Would the principled anti-scholarship parents accept that AAGPS may end up regularly losing Inter-Association games because of a stand on anti-scholarship principles?
Are they the Team B parents from the Under 11's?
As long as we are winning, why should there be any level playing field or why should the rules apply to us?

Are the parents and Principals from the alleged non-scholarship schools first order hypocrites with a healthy case of double standards ?


A good question and the answer is fairly easy. Will the scholarship schools admit they are doing it?

It they do admit it and name the recipients then the others may have to answer the hypocrite question. Of course the scholarship schools are still denying they do it. Hence the problem - banning a lad on hearsay is unjust and will no doubt finish in litigation where everyone except the lawyers lose! Perhaps it is time for the scholarship schools to admit to it and we go from there?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Is this like homosexuality in the USA Military?

It was banned, but as the Military didn't ask, the gay soldiers didn't have to tell.

Why don't the various heads of schools ask the question about scholarships?

Challenge the schools to produce evidence that the boys are NOT on a scholarship otherwise no Rep Jumper.

Have the Heads of Schools statements of compliance witnessed by a Justice of the Peace.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
People, this is an ethical can of worms.
Since all schools are signatories to the code every school must accept that every other school is abiding by both the spirit and letter of the code.
They must treat each other with the common dignity that assumes that fellow members of a voluntary association are abiding by the rules.
To do otherwise threatens the very fabric of the implicit trust by which the association came into being and continues.
The schools ultimately must examine their own "conscience".
For those who believe that schools have broken this trust it is the unconscientiousness of both the fact and manner of the breach that irks us.
It is this which damages the pupils because it hints, if not shouts, that not adhering to what is morally right is acceptable for the sake of expedience. This damages the schools most who pursue recruitment of players.
So the discarded of the cheating schools join the disgruntled from the other schools on the moral high ground while the recruiting schools engrave their names on morally worthless silverware.
On the other side: why should a boy or boys from a non breaching school who are good enough to make a rep team be denied the opportunity of a life time because an entity run by adults who have betrayed their trust cannot see beyond 3:15 next Saturday?
But, as I see it, either it stops, all schools become involved (which then just becomes a contest between one school's talent scouts and another's) or the system collapses.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Paul Keating: "In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it's trying"

When my boys were in Under 9's and Under 10's, there was a lot of debate that larger boys should play Weight for Age grades with many parents calling for these regulations to be implemented. The parents from Team A (with some big boys) seldom agreed that Weight for Age would be useful. The parents from Team B (with no big boys) funnily enough were advocates of Weight For Age.

As this cohort progressed up the age groups and Rep Footy came into the frame, the Team B parents still maintained the rage for Weight for Age, but were the first to ask if Johnny and Henry (Big boys from Team A) were in the Rep team with their precious Oliver's and Sam's. They seemed to be very happy to see Johnny and Henry run rampant over the smaller boys from the other Districts and were not backward in coming forward to say how good Johnny and Henry were. There was no Weight for Age concern for the boys from the other districts. There was a State Championship medal at stake for Oliver and Sam.
This analogy might work if they entered a weight for age comp,and then totally ignored the weight limits and played the bigger boys.Shame on them,for being enthusiastic about having some big boppas to match up against ALL the other teams who also had big boppas.

Fast forward to High School. Newington apparently has some boys in their rugby team that were not there in Year 7. These boys are apparently good rugby players. Newington are in breach of the code of conduct of the AAGPS which states ".no scholarships.." or words to the same general effect. It has been quoted enough that most are familiar with the exact wording and intent of the statement. There is also little point in summarising the arguments for and against as we are all very familiar with them.There you go, you already know the issue!

Come the Inter-association representative season, who are the first boys listed in the keyboard selectors GPS I teams?
Surely not. Not the evil nasty rule-breaking imported boys?

Coming to my point. If AAGPS Principals were serious about compliance with their code of conduct then they would not select any boy in their AAGPS representative team that was at one of the schools, playing 1st XV for their school, who was there under conditions that were in breach of the AAGPS agreement about "scholarships".
Who would compile the list for the selectors,so they know who not to pick?
It is common knowledge that there are boys on sporting scholarships at certain schools. Headmasters from schools that do not offer scholarships are on the public record noting that these exist, and that they are not in the best interests of the association. What do they actually do about it? They clearly know that it exists yet apart from making pious statements in newsletters and on web sites they do NOTHING.

Do they celebrate success of the AAGPS representative rugby team over CAS and CHS in the representative season?
You really think AAGPS competitiveness is a driver in their decision making process to cheat?

Would the principled anti-scholarship parents accept that AAGPS may end up regularly losing Inter-Association games because of a stand on anti-scholarship principles?
When they realise that no imports means more chances for their kids & their friends to represent,they would welcome "the new normal"
Are they the Team B parents from the Under 11's?
As long as we are winning, why should there be any level playing field or why should the rules apply to us?

Are the parents and Principals from the alleged non-scholarship schools first order hypocrites with a healthy case of double standards ?
C'mon Jarse,You are normally better than that.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Further to @biggameplayer's above post #2077 in the Sydney GPS 2013 thread, a relative of mine recounted to me that she heard a rather spirited discussion involving Newington parents discussing their concerns to similar effect on the sideline at a recent GPS match.

It would seem that the drums are beating out Stanmore way.

And I think we all know, this is the only way that the practice will come to an end.

It should also be noted that it's not the only place where the drums need to start beating.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Sorry - forgot we had UK tour - so they may revert on their return. Nice outcome for Aussy Rugby if that occurs.
As I understand it, they need to commit to rugby for a certain period after the tour - 12 months?

I recall that Tyrone Smith couldn't tour with the Australian Schoolboys, because he couldn't sign the agreement, as he was already contracted to a league club.
 

Spieber

Bob Loudon (25)
As I understand it, they need to commit to rugby for a certain period after the tour - 12 months?

I recall that Tyrone Smith couldn't tour with the Australian Schoolboys, because he couldn't sign the agreement, as he was already contracted to a league club.
Yes - I recall same. His wiki entry says he was but not in the tour party photo.
 

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
I've never heard of any one being selected into a Great Public School rep. team, nor of any Great Public School rep team even existing. Many Great Public School players get selected into a Presidents XV 1s 2s and 3s , however I don't know of any code of pratice that covers the selection of Presidents XV player. As far as I know a player doesn't even have to go to a Great Public School team to be selected, let alone restrictions on scholarship vs non-scholarship. For instance they may choose to go to an Ordinary Public School OPS or an Average Private School AVP.
 

gpsoldboy

Chris McKivat (8)
An illustration as to how recent this problem is, note High's 1st XV results from 1990

NC 15 v SHS 12
SGS 15 v SHS 15
SIC 6 v SHS 3
SHS 3 v TSC 0
SHS 12 v TKS 9
SJC 74 v SHS 0
SHS 4 v Shore 3

Obviously not a year for try scoring:).
The greatest travesty of this is that it is endemic of what has occurred in state high schools in the last 20+ years - the total abdication of high school sport. Successive state governments and the Dept of Education have been totally culpable in this outcome.
 
Top