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Scrum Talk

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formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
That's right, the whole thing over and done with from infringement being whistled to half back passing the ball in 17 seconds. (And about 5 seconds of that 17 was taken up by the half having to run and get the ball to feed it)

The 21st century scrumeisters would have us believe otherwise, but this is how scrums looked for most of rugby history. What goes on now is an abomination.
I was going to say that neck injuries caused by haphazard binding and engagements led us to today's stilted, power packed scrum engagements. However the clip shows a stable scrum so the "old fashioned way" did have its strengths.
Any changes to the current scrum laws would have to be supported by mountains of medical, technical, and physical engineering research.
 

Chris McCracken

Jim Clark (26)
I was going to say that neck injuries caused by haphazard binding and engagements led us to today's stilted, power packed scrum engagements. However the clip shows a stable scrum so the "old fashioned way" did have its strengths.
Any changes to the current scrum laws would have to be supported by mountains of medical, technical, and physical engineering research.
I've long thought that the scrum rules we have today have removed themselves a long way from the original changes for the "safety" of the players. I'm with you. I think a return to something like the old method would probably be safer.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I've long thought that the scrum rules we have today have removed themselves a long way from the original changes for the "safety" of the players. I'm with you. I think a return to something like the old method would probably be safer.

A scrum was originally nothing more than an organised ruck. Hence in French the scrum is known as la mêlée and a ruck is known as la mêlée ouverte.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Scrums were better when refs made a mark and then told them to get on with it.


Well get the full qualification and blow the whistle if you can do better. You're there anyway, may as well give the players the benefit of your superior ability.


If I wanted threats of having my head punched in every Saturday from a big brown man, I'll just go spill someone's beer in a Mt Druitt pub.

I think our refs are getting fucked hard by the rugby fraternity - particularly Subbies - they get no support and the "allowance" is hardly worth travelling the whole way across Sydney for. By comparison, AFL and Soccer refs get more protection and understanding from their parent body, and are suitably compensated for their time and qualifications.

What is particularly galling is the top divisions take most of the best refs, while quality fixtures in lower divisions get the leftovers. Everyone is trying to do their best, but its hardly horses for courses.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
A scrum was originally nothing more than an organised ruck. Hence in French the scrum is known as la mêlée and a ruck is known as la mêlée ouverte.

Conversely, in the old days when players stayed up in a ruck and the ball was moved forward on the ground (like a maul) but not carried it was call a "loose scrummage" - or "rucking".

Now rucking refers to a player getting shoed. The old moving rucks were well-rewarded when technique was good.

But the change to the tackled-ball law put a stop to that.
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brokendown

Vay Wilson (31)
Conversely, in the old days when players stayed up in a ruck and the ball was moved forward on the ground (like a maul) but not carried it was call a "loose scrummage" - or "rucking".

Now rucking refers to a player getting shoed. The old moving rucks were well-rewarded when technique was good.

But the change to the tackled-ball law put a stop to that.
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like the old dribbling=the forwards would move the ball forward with their feet,Woe betide anyone game enough to fall on the ball!
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Formerflanker - brokendown is talking about times before Greg Davis, before the change of the "tackled ball" law.

like the old dribbling=the forwards would move the ball forward with their feet,Woe betide anyone game enough to fall on the ball!

You are showing your age brokendown and perhaps your username is well-earned.

Those were the days and the great practitioners of dribbling, like Ron Hemi, had value that they would not have in these times.

Young shavers of 60 or so, or younger, would not appreciate why players did not pick the ball up and run with it rather than dribble the ball forward with feet and shins as old timers (now) practised so diligently in their young days.

And thereby brave men used to dive on the ball and get shoed, as they deserved and expected; and if he wasn't he was usually stepped over and the ball was on the wrong side of the ruck anyway - unless there was a counter-ruck. That isn't new.

It goes back to the early days of rugby when the ball was not handled in open play but was played with the foot when the ball squirted from the giant tank movements that they had, when men were men, and shins were hacked.

Gradually the tanks were no more and the game from the Rugby School diverged into either a sport played only with the feet (football/soccer) and a different game of rugby in which the ball could be carried.

But in the new rugby the constraint on not being allowed to pick up the ball any time you wanted to, prevailed: if a player was tackled, the ball could be not picked up before it was played by the foot.

This arcane law prevailed until the late 1950's and even before then it was deemed to be stupid: a law because it had always been a law.

But once you didn't have to play the ball with the foot first before you picked it up, the game blossomed as a running game. There was a bit of residual diving at the feet but the ball was more likely to have been picked up already.

It was the most significant change in the laws of rugby for the last 100 years.

The negative part of the change, when hands were used more to pick up the ball on the ground, was that hands gradually got further and further into the ruck to do so and players from both sides went to ground to maintain their handling rights.

The actions at most rucks now would have penalised in the early 1960's about five years after the law change but as the decades passed generations of referees allowed the hands-in and the flops.

Those refs claimed to be modern: they were speeding up the game; but they killed the old ruck: the ball moving upfield with the ball on the floor, and they created a monster, laughably called a "ruck".

They could have had both the old ruck and the new pick-ups.

I am still dribbling now but it has nothing to do with rugby.
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boyo

Mark Ella (57)
I think our refs are getting fucked hard by the rugby fraternity - particularly Subbies - they get no support and the "allowance" is hardly worth travelling the whole way across Sydney for. By comparison, AFL and Soccer refs get more protection and understanding from their parent body, and are suitably compensated for their time and qualifications.

The allowance doesn't even cover petrol costs, let alone wear and tear on your car nor gear costs.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
I think what he's saying is that once the clock stops for the scrum, the pressure is then off referees, administrators, players and coaches to speed the things up. We'll end up like gridiron with a game lasting hours if those who put the scrum above all the other facets of the game are allowed to get something like this in. More down time = more time for the big blokes to catch their breath and thus less opportunity for the little fast blokes to make breaks.
One way around that might be to get tougher on the scrums. Just brainstorming here, but I heard Ronan O'Gara talking about having a former prop in with the TMO giving the ref some insight on what's going on. That could help. On top of that, if the ref does something like, say, after two collapses there will be a free kick or penalty and play will be restarted, maybe the packs will start to sort themselves out.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
The scrum half must throw in the ball straight along the middle line, so that it first touches the ground immediately beyond the width of the nearer prop’s shoulders.
Sanction: Free Kick
Two things about the scrum half feeding the ball in straight:

First, I've heard some refs (Nigel Owens, for one) talk about how they've taken the hooker's safety into consideration and have "widened" that middle line. So as long as they're not feeding the ball directly into the hooker's feet or into the second row like they used to, as long as it's in the tunnel, they'll allow a bit of bend and angle.

Second, hookers are getting much better at hooking, and at times what looks like a crooked feed is straight enough, but was hooked back so quickly it just looks like it was fed in crooked.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I'd argue that a completely straight and down the middle feed would make scrums slower overall.. The issue there is that as soon as either hooker attempts to hook he compromises the strength of the front row and the other side gets the shove on.

A slightly crooked feed doesn't require the hooker to reach as far forward thus he doesn't compromise the strength of the front row..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Two things about the scrum half feeding the ball in straight:

First, I've heard some refs (Nigel Owens, for one) talk about how they've taken the hooker's safety into consideration and have "widened" that middle line. So as long as they're not feeding the ball directly into the hooker's feet or into the second row like they used to, as long as it's in the tunnel, they'll allow a bit of bend and angle.

Second, hookers are getting much better at hooking, and at times what looks like a crooked feed is straight enough, but was hooked back so quickly it just looks like it was fed in crooked.

So you're saying that refs are happy to give the side which already has a huge advantage, by having the loose head, the feed and can signal when the ball is being fed, should get another advantage by being allowed "a bit of bend and angle?:confused:

That being the case, the scrum is no longer a ball winning contest, so let's have an end to this fantasy that the scrum is a contest for possession - it's just a penalty winning contest. It's becoming (become?) as big a joke as league scrums - the authorities and referees conniving to take the contest out.:mad:
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I'd argue that a completely straight and down the middle feed would make scrums slower overall.. The issue there is that as soon as either hooker attempts to hook he compromises the strength of the front row and the other side gets the shove on.

A slightly crooked feed doesn't require the hooker to reach as far forward thus he doesn't compromise the strength of the front row..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't agree at all with these assumptions.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
And from the halcyon days of 1932:
SCRUMMAGE CHANGES.
Amendments of the scrummage rules areparticularly interesting, as a general meetingof the New Zealand Rugby Union this monthwill consider a recommendation from the man-agement committee that New Zealand shouldchange its scrummage formation to the Aus-
tralian 3-2-3.
Sub-clause "g" provides that the ball Isnot fairly in a scrummage until it has beenput in straight, has touched the ground be-tween the opposing players, and has passedboth feet of a player of each team. TheReferees' Association comments that this doesnot conflict with sub-clause "1," which pro-vides that the ball must pass the first threefeet of the front row forwards of each team,on the side on which the ball Is being putin, before those feet can be raised or advancedbeyond the line of feet of their own front
row forwards. The other forwards, as soonas the ball Is "fairly In the scrummage," mayraise or advance their feet. The object ofthe rule apparently is to enable the ball toreach the centre of the scrummage.

Another sub-clause provides that a playernot in the scrummage must not advanceeither foot in front of the ball while it is inthe scrummage, whereas under the old rulehe was not "off-side" while he kept one footbehind the ball. This rule will have the effectof preventing to a great extent the "smother-ing" of the opposing half by a breakaway.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16852581
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Why not have Sir feed the scrum? Get rid of the yappy cheating runt halfbacks.

Touch Judges restart the game in AFL by chucking it in for the Tall Timber to scrap over.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Why not have Sir feed the scrum? Get rid of the yappy cheating runt halfbacks.

Touch Judges restart the game in AFL by chucking it in for the Tall Timber to scrap over.

In the spirit of an even contest this could work, but it could also blinker the refs view ability to police the scrum, especially if the opposing side props are sting silly buggers.


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Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
So you're saying that refs are happy to give the side which already has a huge advantage, by having the loose head, the feed and can signal when the ball is being fed, should get another advantage by being allowed "a bit of bend and angle?:confused:

That being the case, the scrum is no longer a ball winning contest, so let's have an end to this fantasy that the scrum is a contest for possession - it's just a penalty winning contest. It's becoming (become?) as big a joke as league scrums - the authorities and referees conniving to take the contest out.:mad:


"Having the advantage" of the loosehead becomes a moot point if your hooker can't hook, because you've got 8 people pushing low and hard against them.

Back in the old days, when hookers actually hooked the opposition ball, it meant something. But if we persist with a narrow tunnel to put the ball down, we're just going to get two shoving contests, and a shitload of scrums where the ball just sits there.

I marvel that anyone can get their feet up with their shoulders that close to the ground. Let's not kill anyone trying to make it more difficult.
 
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