Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[Sydney Rugby tragic]

Sydney Rugby tragic,

I had let this question go thru to the keeper, prefering that the boys themselves answer the question. A week ago they answered your question in the most emphatic way by winning the Country Championship undefeated. They and the country selector answered your question .."who are they." by selecting 11 Illawarra boys out of 23 in the Country team (we will have to look at the record books to see when this was last done).

Well done the Illawarra U17s you committed to each other, trained hard, played well and deserved the results you have achieved.​

And now the State Championships.

hugh bro
you took a long time to answer this question as if u didnt have the balls to put name to paper & just sat on the fence hoping the boys
came thru for u haha.
well done to the boys .
my question to u bro is how strong was the other teams ? how many of last yrs country boys had moved on to greener pastures?
the only yr u go to state is when we win the country champs? y dont we go every year?
also a bit of nepotismin the selections at 9 the coaches picking his own son !!!!!!!! leaving ben & jayden on the bench & not even picking young Tommy
all in my opinion better players . lucky the team won
hope u can reply faster to this one Hugh

 

[Hugie]

Sydney Rugby tragic,
Glad to see your response.

In my view "actions speak loader than words" and the best place to answer questions about "..who are they?" is on the ground.

Tommy Sawden pulled out of the selection to go to play with West Harbour Colts. I've heard a rumour that we may loose 3 more to West Harbour (when are the Sydney schools and teams going to learn to develop their own juniors) ???

My view of the 3 x9s is there wasn't anything between them and you could have gone with any of them without a loss of capability. It is difficult for the coach when it starts to look like you're going to win, as the pressure is on not to change the combination, remember they play 20 minute halves so fatigue isn't a factor, and you don't have much time to get patterns going. I would have liked Ben and Jayden to have more time, however I wasn't making the call. Jayden could have played 5/8 also but Ryan Sorrel was feeding his backs so well it must have seemed too risky to change (it's always difficult to be a coach).

There were a lot of last years player missing (particularly for Hunter) however still plenty turned up and a lot of the CHS team that toured NZ (many landed back Tuesday and drove to Morree Friday). Illawarra lost its' Hooker to injury on that tour. I'm sure all the other teams had similar stories.

The best teams were Far North Coast, Central Coast and Illawarra all those contests were close and any could have won the championship. With 20 minute halves there is a fair amount of luck in the outcome, you have to go hard from the kickoff, no time to settle into patterns, no time to fatigue your opponents and difficult to make substitutions.

We didn't go to the state champs last year because the team management "fell apart" the coach got very involved in CHS rugby and the manager moved to Sydeny. These things take a lot of committment from a lot of people and that doesn't always happen.

 

[Sydney Rugby tragic]

Sydney Rugby tragic,
Glad to see your response.

In my view "actions speak loader than words" and the best place to answer questions about "..who are they?" is on the ground.

Tommy Sawden pulled out of the selection to go to play with West Harbour Colts. I've heard a rumour that we may loose 3 more to West Harbour (when are the Sydney schools and teams going to learn to develop their own juniors) ???

My view of the 3 x9s is there wasn't anything between them and you could have gone with any of them without a loss of capability. It is difficult for the coach when it starts to look like you're going to win, as the pressure is on not to change the combination, remember they play 20 minute halves so fatigue isn't a factor, and you don't have much time to get patterns going. I would have liked Ben and Jayden to have more time, however I wasn't making the call. Jayden could have played 5/8 also but Ryan Sorrel was feeding his backs so well it must have seemed too risky to change (it's always difficult to be a coach).

There were a lot of last years player missing (particularly for Hunter) however still plenty turned up and a lot of the CHS team that toured NZ (many landed back Tuesday and drove to Morree Friday). Illawarra lost its' Hooker to injury on that tour. I'm sure all the other teams had similar stories.

The best teams were Far North Coast, Central Coast and Illawarra all those contests were close and any could have won the championship. With 20 minute halves there is a fair amount of luck in the outcome, you have to go hard from the kickoff, no time to settle into patterns, no time to fatigue your opponents and difficult to make substitutions.

We didn't go to the state champs last year because the team management "fell apart" the coach got very involved in CHS rugby and the manager moved to Sydeny. These things take a lot of committment from a lot of people and that doesn't always happen.

Hey bro
Fast on the response this time ay haha
It wasn't the boys point of view I was looking for
it was yours . U can't proof your view because your not on
The pitch . If u mentioned the players before the comp
then yes your right , but after its finished come on bro !
It's like backing a horse after the race finished haha.
Spoke to young Tommys dad he was available but they
didn't pick him . He went to every training session informed the
Coach he would in NZ on the trial match
But never got picked . One way to get your son in ay bro
Last yr the coach was Norm he disappeared but I'm sure
the team could gone to state with a stand in coach . Ie ridgeway / kipp
Or another team coach or even yourself .

 

[Hugie]

Sydney rugby tragic,
I have been proven absolutely correct.
My point was:
"However there are still plenty more where they came from. AND we haven't lost as many as we have in the past.
Watch the Illawarra U17 team this year."

There are plenty more, in fact 11 in the country team and yet more could have been selected. We haven't lost as many as in the past, other teams (Hunter) seemed to have lost a lot more.

I think the Tommy you were refering to with your horse racing analogy and betting on horse after the race was Tom Waterhouse not Tom Sawden. Maybe we should ask John Singleton about his opinion on Tommy Sawden's non selection he seems to have an opinion on everything.

I'm sorry to hear Tommy didn't get selected, when I asked around the grounds the response was "he's gone to play for West Harbour", and then I saw a post talking about how well he was going in Colts. I think he's done the right thing you need to find coaches and selector that like your style of play, there isn't a right way of playing rugby, there are many stategies, if your style doesn't fit what the selectors are looking for go some where that it does. The half back problem is an example of the depth of players in the Illawarra Ben, Tommy, Pat, Jayden and let's not forget James Marsh (the Bowral half) could all have executed that role well, one of them happens to be the coaches son,big problem. Thank heavens I wasn't a selector. Another example is in the front row where Curtis Patten was injured playing for CHS in NZ and Nathan Ford was yellow carded twice (unfairly in my view) and so was off for the final, both very good front rowers, yet the front row showed no signs of weakness in the final. Illawarra controlled more than its' share of the ball and territory.

I agree that the team should have gone to state champ last year. I thought they played well below potential in the Country Champs, but were starting to get into their pattern towards the end. ie with a couple of lead up games they could have played more to their potential in the states. HOWEVER I didn't organise it, so this excludeds me from critisising others.

 

[Sydney Rugby tragic]

Sydney rugby tragic,
I have been proven absolutely correct.
My point was:
"However there are still plenty more where they came from. AND we haven't lost as many as we have in the past.
Watch the Illawarra U17 team this year."

There are plenty more, in fact 11 in the country team and yet more could have been selected. We haven't lost as many as in the past, other teams (Hunter) seemed to have lost a lot more.

I think the Tommy you were refering to with your horse racing analogy and betting on horse after the race was Tom Waterhouse not Tom Sawden. Maybe we should ask John Singleton about his opinion on Tommy Sawden's non selection he seems to have an opinion on everything.

I'm sorry to hear Tommy didn't get selected, when I asked around the grounds the response was "he's gone to play for West Harbour", and then I saw a post talking about how well he was going in Colts. I think he's done the right thing you need to find coaches and selector that like your style of play, there isn't a right way of playing rugby, there are many stategies, if your style doesn't fit what the selectors are looking for go some where that it does. The half back problem is an example of the depth of players in the Illawarra Ben, Tommy, Pat, Jayden and let's not forget James Marsh (the Bowral half) could all have executed that role well, one of them happens to be the coaches son,big problem. Thank heavens I wasn't a selector. Another example is in the front row where Curtis Patten was injured playing for CHS in NZ and Nathan Ford was yellow carded twice (unfairly in my view) and so was off for the final, both very good front rowers, yet the front row showed no signs of weakness in the final. Illawarra controlled more than its' share of the ball and territory.

I agree that the team should have gone to state champ last year. I thought they played well below potential in the Country Champs, but were starting to get into their pattern towards the end. ie with a couple of lead up games they could have played more to their potential in the states. HOWEVER I didn't organise it, so this excludeds me from critisising others.

Sydney rugby tragic,
I have been proven absolutely correct.
My point was:
"However there are still plenty more where they came from. AND we haven't lost as many as we have in the past.
Watch the Illawarra U17 team this year."

There are plenty more, in fact 11 in the country team and yet more could have been selected. We haven't lost as many as in the past, other teams (Hunter) seemed to have lost a lot more.

I think the Tommy you were refering to with your horse racing analogy and betting on horse after the race was Tom Waterhouse not Tom Sawden. Maybe we should ask John Singleton about his opinion on Tommy Sawden's non selection he seems to have an opinion on everything.

I'm sorry to hear Tommy didn't get selected, when I asked around the grounds the response was "he's gone to play for West Harbour", and then I saw a post talking about how well he was going in Colts. I think he's done the right thing you need to find coaches and selector that like your style of play, there isn't a right way of playing rugby, there are many stategies, if your style doesn't fit what the selectors are looking for go some where that it does. The half back problem is an example of the depth of players in the Illawarra Ben, Tommy, Pat, Jayden and let's not forget James Marsh (the Bowral half) could all have executed that role well, one of them happens to be the coaches son,big problem. Thank heavens I wasn't a selector. Another example is in the front row where Curtis Patten was injured playing for CHS in NZ and Nathan Ford was yellow carded twice (unfairly in my view) and so was off for the final, both very good front rowers, yet the front row showed no signs of weakness in the final. Illawarra controlled more than its' share of the ball and territory.

I agree that the team should have gone to state champ last year. I thought they played well below potential in the Country Champs, but were starting to get into their pattern towards the end. ie with a couple of lead up games they could have played more to their potential in the states. HOWEVER I didn't organise it, so this excludeds me from critisising others.

Hey bro
U haven't proved anything. The boys have .
In an earlier post u said there are plenty more to where they come from & I ask you who they were . No reply from u . U didn't name any players .
Does Tom Waterhouse or John singleton have anything to do
with Illawarra ? Leave them out of it they've got enough on
their plate as it is .
Here goes Hugh prove your point & tell us who will go good in the state
champs for Illawarra .
U keep going on about 11 players in the country team
of they were that good where was they last yr.
about last yrs team ( I spoke to my boy)
Young Tommy was country back of the yr , star player
at the nationals & was on the NZ Chs tour so u telling me
the other 9s are better than him.
My boy said not only is young Tommy playing colts but he
Is in the 1st 15 . Would the the other 9s be up to this ?
Also u said u wish the Sydney would develop
there own players. Campbeltown is in Sydney
all the boys go to Sydney schools . The Bowral boys are from
the southern highlands not Illawarra . If these two team s
weren't in the Illawarra comp how many teams would u have
In the comp ?
Also out of the teams playing in the 17s comp how many
Players are genuine 17s players? If it wasn't for it been a mixed 16s
17s comp u wouldn't have a 17s team .
Also how many games have been played this season
In the heart land of rugby in the 17s comp?

 

[Rugby Mum]

IMO many children did not go the country pathway as they were told last year if they wanted to do schools they could not do both. Some of them have headed north, others to Sydney as they wanted to continue playing rugby at a high level and as much of it as they wanted! Others from the National side last year have been noticed for their outstanding abilities and playing for Sydney Teams.
Since Campbelltown joined the Illawarra region more talented players have turned up in the Illawarra side.

 

[Rugby Mum]

IMO many children did not go the country pathway as they were told last year if they wanted to do schools they could not do both. Some of them have headed north, others to Sydney as they wanted to continue playing rugby at a high level and as much of it as they wanted! Others from the National side last year have been noticed for their outstanding abilities and playing for Sydney Teams.
Since Campbelltown joined the Illawarra region more talented players have turned up in the Illawarra side.

And it's great to see Illawarra keeping the rugby numbers going, as they drop in other regions. When talented kids move on, opportunities open for other kids that have gone unnoticed.

 

[Budgie]

Surprised (maybe not) to see A certain name listed in the Sydney Juniors under 17 trials. This boy was not wanted by CCC despite being at CCC trials.

This boy did not play at state champs but is being parachuted into SJRU as he was in the 15s and 16s. He seems to be selected once again to curry favour with a rugby administrator.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Have heard Gutterige is also on standby.

You called it early last year for the U16's as well Budgie.

 

[Interested party]

Surely having a possibles vs probable s in the 17s is a fair option for choosing a SJRU17s? Some districts didn't enter the state champs but their club players should be considered for SJRU. The timing of the trial is not the best...surely the weekend of the 15s/16s regionals would be better. Still time to meld a team before City vs Country.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Do these kids need to play more footy?

How do country select their team?
A possible vs probable trial after the championships are held, or do they back their selectors judgement?

Club players in districts that do not enter teams in the state champs are free to try out for any district that will have them. This is clearly permitted under the eligibility rules.

If the kid from a district that is not entering a team in state champs tries out for another district and is unable to win selection for that district, then they probably are not of a suitable standard to make the Sydney team anyway.

The whole process seems terribly inefficient and time consuming. I can understand why the ARU Mandarins are not happy and are seeking change.

 

[Top Cat]

Do these kids need to play more footy?

How do country select their team?
A possible vs probable trial after the championships are held, or do they back their selectors judgement?

Club players in districts that do not enter teams in the state champs are free to try out for any district that will have them. This is clearly permitted under the eligibility rules.

If the kid from a district that is not entering a team in state champs tries out for another district and is unable to win selection for that district, then they probably are not of a suitable standard to make the Sydney team anyway.

The whole process seems terribly inefficient and time consuming. I can understand why the ARU Mandarins are not happy and are seeking change.

 

[Top Cat]

Hugh,
The Country team is selected at the NSW Country Championships and we have been advised that selection generally takes place during the pool games on the first day.

Due to the number of matches being played it appears that selectors go from field to field carrying their clipboards and can be seen having a chat along the way or on the side line. How much of each game they actually see I have no idea. From my experience it appears to be a hit or miss assessment as they have to be watching when a player is actually displaying his 'skills' and of course if the timing isn't right then you are missed. Some selectors will talk to the coaches and others will not, so it's a toss of the coin on that one.

If you manage to get the ball in an 'easy' pool game it isn't difficult to look impressive, especially if you play selfish rugby. The team is already selected before the sometimes much harder semi's and final where the teams are generally more competitive and of course some players don't get to play against the top team.

One month later come the NSW State Championships. Not all the players selected for Country compete as some of the regional teams do not attend. It is here that the teams are more competitive and the players more skilful but it is irrelevant how poorly a player plays or whether their level of ability has been exposed they have already been selected for Country.

To be honest the system is pathetic, full of nepotism and must surely be disheartening to many a player.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^ Not too different to what we have down here in the big smoke then.

 

[Top Cat]

You appear to have a far better selection process.

If you take your U16's as an example, you had eight Sydney teams with an approximately total of 200 players at the State Championships. That has been halved through the process of six teams playing four games and two teams playing five games.

You now have four teams with a total of 100 players and more games to come during which the final 25 will be selected.

NSW Country Championships were attended by six teams with a total of approximately 150 players. This was cut down to the final 23 for the NSW Country team after only two or three games.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

U16's selection process. You beauty.

Yes it seems rather fair with the Initial filtering by Districts before State Champs, then the Regional Selections, N, S, W and Barbars. Up to this point it is logical and rather fair, although the N, S, W selections seems to imply that there is more or less even balances between the geographic groupings.

This has not been the case for many years and boys from the North dominate in the Barbars selection team, with the Southern team nearly always playing off for the wooden spoon.

A fairer way may be to base the 4 "regional" teams on the nucleus of the top 4 City district teams, and then allocate the standouts from the districts that didn't make it to the semi-finals on a random basis to one of the the "regional" teams.

The whole system falls down AFTER regionals when NSW Schools has their turn at picking their team. They select their team based around the NSW Schools U16 tournament performance, and the lead up trials. What a surprise it must be each year to find out that the same star performers at State Champs and Regional U16's in the Juniors are star performers at the Schools tournament. The Juniors want them, and so do the Schools.

One pool of players. Two independent organisations trying to pick their top 23 performers from the one pool. The Annual Selectorial Circus begins.

 

[Top Cat]

As I previously stated the U16's Country team was selected over a month ago at the Country Championships. Since then the schools have held their trials and a number of players who were originally selected for the Country team have withdrawn after gaining selection with the schools. Many believe it is their best pathway.

Country have had to call on shadow players to fill the positions so good luck to those that have made it.

 

[southsider]

Do these kids need to play more footy?

How do country select their team?
A possible vs probable trial after the championships are held, or do they back their selectors judgement?

Club players in districts that do not enter teams in the state champs are free to try out for any district that will have them. This is clearly permitted under the eligibility rules.

If the kid from a district that is not entering a team in state champs tries out for another district and is unable to win selection for that district, then they probably are not of a suitable standard to make the Sydney team anyway.

The whole process seems terribly inefficient and time consuming. I can understand why the ARU Mandarins are not happy and are seeking change.

are the kids really complaining about playing more footy? im sure i wouldnt have!

i would have loved to have had a trial back in my day. when i was in the 17's we had the "selectors pick at the games" process too (although the year i was in 17's it was a sunday competition over 6 weeks). A sydney team was picked that i found out included myself and a number of other people from southern and western teams. However the coach of the sydney team turned up to the g/f between manly and gordon and replaced nearly all of us with guys from those teams, without even having seen us play. I think whatever gives the coaches the most opportunities to see the boys and find out who really is the best is a postive, if not slightly inconvenient.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Are the kids complaining that they are playing too much footy?
Probably not. Back in the day I never complained about too much footy either.

Are the kids getting injured more?
Are they getting the time they need to recover from the little bumps and bruises before they front up for their next game?
How many times did we train each week, back in the day? How many times a week do they train now?
Were we expected to play a game at 3pm at Newport, and then expected back up with another game at Dural at 6pm, after we played a game for School on Saturday?
Was this the week after we played 4 x 45 minute games over two days (add 1 x 70 minute game for the finalists on day 3) at State Championships?

Do the kids know if they are playing too much footy?
Do 16 year old kids really know what, if any, long term damage to their health could arise from playing "too much" footy?
Do 16 year old kids really care about any long term damage to their health that could arise from playing "too much" footy?

ARU have strict guidelines about how much footy is too much footy on a daily basis. Apparently it is 90 minutes. This makes sense because the State Champs U17 games are limited to 2 x 22.5 minute periods.
What is the ARU guideline on the maximum amount of footy that can be played in a week, or a month? Do that have a policy for this? If not, perhaps they should have.


Out of interest, who won the Sydney vs NSW Country U17 game that was mostly Gordon and Manly boys from the Grand Final?

 

[southsider]

Are the kids complaining that they are playing too much footy?
Probably not. Back in the day I never complained about too much footy either. I should just confirm "when I said back in the day" I meant 5 years ago"

Are the kids getting injured more? I dunno, you tell me, do you have any stats to support this?
Are they getting the time they need to recover from the little bumps and bruises before they front up for their next game?
How many times did we train each week, back in the day? How many times a week do they train now? well when I was 17 I had school 2xfield sessions and 3xgym session, 1xfield session for club, 2xfield sessions for reps then 2 games on the saturday for school and club and one for reps on sunday
Were we expected to play a game at 3pm at Newport, and then expected back up with another game at Dural at 6pm, after we played a game for School on Saturday? I can beat that, 2008 Sydney v country had a game somewhere near maitland/Newcastle 3 hours later we were expected to be at forest to play our knockout semi-final.....
Was this the week after we played 4 x 45 minute games over two days (add 1 x 70 minute game for the finalists on day 3) at State Championships? I seriousy think your underestimating the toughness and durability of teenage boys


Out of interest, who won the Sydney vs NSW Country U17 game that was mostly Gordon and Manly boys from the Grand Final?

Sydney did, country was godawful horrible in our age group