Should we have a SH 5 Nations?

[TOCC]

I think we can't underestimate the 'Olympic' factor also. Many expect a revolution (hehe) to occur in these countries given that Rugby will provide the means to an Olympic gold medal.

We all know the prestige, corporate support, sponsorship and advertising that goes with the Olympics.

Having just returned from the US after 8months living there, i can sympathize with what you are saying. Whilst Olympic funding will open some doors, there are major concerns and early signs that this funding for 7's rugby will be at the detriment of resources already allocated to 15's.

US rugby will mature into a semi-pro comp in the future and inevitably a professional comp. But all indications are that the US is at least a whole generation or 10 years away before it can be remotely competitive with Australian rugby,

If the tri-nations was going to expand further past Argentina, it would have to be through the pacific islands. But even that is many years away.

 

[Joe Mac]

I think the money is there in the US it's just that they don't have a team and a competition to bring the crowds. However, it does seem to garner more interest on the east coast which is probably too much travel time and too tough a time zone...

While Japan has a competition, interest is small due to the limited game-time that their national side gets against decent opposition. annual games against good opposition would likely be all that was needed to grow the game there significantly. It really fits with their culture.

 

[Richo]

The American TV market would probably sustain a professional national team more than one might think at first blush. Making that team competitive is a whole different story.

 

[grievous]

The PI side as a combined side has not worked and been a financial disaster

 

[Nusadan]

I like the idea. Evidently there is a move to add both the US and Canada into the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) from next year so I think it would work. Would need advance scheduling but could prove worthwhile. Let's forget about money for a moment and think about the game, it would be great for the game.

If that happens, what of the Churchill Cup played by them against England 'B' and other teams from Europe played at the end of the NH season each year?

 

[H...]

So I can get my bearings, what would the lowest paid Australian Super Rugby player get paid?

 

[Rebel rouser]

I agree but I think combining them helps a bit with the financial hurdle. The idea would only work if the PI nations combined had some form of a presence in the Super rugby comp to keep players in the SH. There would have to be a way to maintain the individual integrity of the individual nations also.

A combined PI team has been done numerous times, and each time it has been the lesser than any of its constituent nations. They themselves have stated that they dislike the idea because it is not the same as representing their country.

A good mental exercise is combining Aus and NZ because we're close, or Ireland and England. I think it we have to be honest and say that there is a subtle undertone of completely unintentional racism here. Along the lines of 'all you asians looks the same'.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

If that happens, what of the Churchill Cup played by them against England 'B' and other teams from Europe played at the end of the NH season each year?

The Churchill Cup has been assigned to the annuals of history. This year's edition was its swansong.

 

[Nusadan]

The Churchill Cup has been assigned to the annuals of history. This year's edition was its swansong.

Cheers for the info...any reason given?

 

[Manuel]

I am skeptical enough about the Pumas being added to add a fifth nation. How is it assured that Argentina will have their players available? For me Argentina is a NH rugby nation, pretty much as Japan is a SH one.

 

[tigerland12]

If Argentina cannot get ALL their NH players available, I cannot see them lasting long in the tournment.

 

[waves]

Just a theory; Thoughts ?

Four Nations;
1. Australia
2. New Zealand
3. South Africa
4. Argentina

Pacific Nations Cup;
1. Samoa
2. Tonga
3. Fiji
4. Japan

Churchill Cup; (Starts a year after PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) and 4 Nations)
1. USA
2. Canada
3. Italy
4. - Bottom Placed 4th Nations (South Africa / Argentina)

Four Nations - Bottom placed team is relugated each year. ( If Argentina or South Africa are relugated they must play in Churchill Cup) (IF NZ or Aus are relugated they must play in Pacific Nations Cup )

Pacific Nations & Churchill Cup Winner will join in Four Nations every second year.

- Bottom Place of Four Nations 2011 - Argentina (Will play Churchill Cup 2012)
- Winner of Pacific Nations 2011 - Japan (Will play Four Nations in 2012)

- Bottom Place of Four Nations 2012 - Japan (Will play Pacific Nations 2013)
- Winner of Churchill Cup 2012 - Argentina (Will play Four Nations in 2013)
- Winner of Pacific Nations Cup 2012 - Fiji (Will play in Four Nations 2014)

so on and so forth ....

 

[rustycruiser]

Just a theory; Thoughts ?

Four Nations;
1. Australia
2. New Zealand
3. South Africa
4. Argentina

Pacific Nations Cup;
1. Samoa
2. Tonga
3. Fiji
4. Japan

Churchill Cup; (Starts a year after PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) and 4 Nations)
1. USA
2. Canada
3. Italy
4. - Bottom Placed 4th Nations (South Africa / Argentina)

Four Nations - Bottom placed team is relugated each year. ( If Argentina or South Africa are relugated they must play in Churchill Cup) (IF NZ or Aus are relugated they must play in Pacific Nations Cup )

Pacific Nations & Churchill Cup Winner will join in Four Nations every second year.

- Bottom Place of Four Nations 2011 - Argentina (Will play Churchill Cup 2012)
- Winner of Pacific Nations 2011 - Japan (Will play Four Nations in 2012)

- Bottom Place of Four Nations 2012 - Japan (Will play Pacific Nations 2013)
- Winner of Churchill Cup 2012 - Argentina (Will play Four Nations in 2013)
- Winner of Pacific Nations Cup 2012 - Fiji (Will play in Four Nations 2014)

so on and so forth ....

Why is it the responsibility of Sanzar to nurture Pacific Island and/or North American rugby? They are a commercial entity. None of the scenarios listed in this thread do anything to increase the bottom line of the Sanzar bank accounts. And all altruism aside, that is all they care about. If the IRB wants to start a Tri Nations B competition that runs concurrently to the Tri Nations (similar to the Six Nations B), good for them. But Sanzar is not going to foot the bill. The PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) in effect fills that bill. Perhaps the IRB should move it to the same IRB eligibility window as the 3N, to ensure that the Island teams get access to their players. But as a South African, I don't feel like my Union (Saru) should concern themselves with NA or PI rugby teams. Saru can barely sell tests vs Uruguay, Canada, USA etc when they happen once every 5 years.

 

[Riptide]

Economic imperatives will dictate if, when and how the major SH tournaments are expanded. Right now, it makes no financial sense. Japan may make sense but only on the back of a RWC when a greatly increased profile for the game along accompanying broadcasting interest may make it more viable and interesting for all parties.

The US is struggling to raise funds to support extended camps for it's existing players, and get it's best players available for international competition (the majority of whom are part-time and scattered across the US). I know two board members on USA Rugby and both of them are pinning their hopes on the Olympics and 7's and securing additional sponsorship for the development of the game as a result. To date, it has been slow in coming.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Cheers for the info...any reason given?

Don't know exactly, there have been reasons from run its course to incompetent development of the tournament.

 

[wolverine]

There was another thread on this include pacific islanders into the tri-nations Can a mod please merge the threads?

As others have said, adding the PIs to the 4N would not add a new broadcast audience that could drive an increase in value of the SANZAR deal. It would both increase costs for the SANZAR Unions, and demands on the players. I like the idea of a PI team, but My suggestion is this:

Give the PIs, USA, Canada, Japan a third window to play tests (as the 3N and 6N get), and allow them to stage annual tournaments at the same time as the SANZAR Four Nations in September, where they can play an annual regional tournament. The IRB should extend Regulation 9 to require European and Japanese clubs to release players to these competitions, as they have done for Argentina's addition to the 4N. I'd suggest:
South Pacific Cup - Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. Each team plays 2 games
North Pacific Cup - USA, Canada, Japan. Each team plays 2 games
This would free up the June window, which Fiji/Samoa/Tonga, and and USA, Canada, Japan, could use the June window to receive inbound touring opposition e.g. touring 6N teams fielding A team or fringe lineups.

Furthermore, I'd suggest a combined PI team could tour three years out of four in November, perhaps mimicing the Wallabies and ABs schedule:
Year 1: combined team plays tests in tour of UK: England, Wales, Scotland. A solution to gaining buy-in from the individual PI Unions is that Fiji, Samoa, Tonga would tour simultaneously play 3 midweek tour games against British clubs/franchises. So Fiji could Bath, Cardiff, Glasgow midweek; Samoa could play Leicester, Ospreys, Edinburgh etc, while the combined Pacific team play England, Wales and Scotland on the weekends.
Year 2: combined team plays non Lions recipients e.g. in 2013, plays tests against NZ, SA and Argentina
Year 3: combined team plays tests in tour of Europe: Ireland, France, Italy. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga could play midweek tour games against Irish/French clubs/provinces. So for example, Tonga might play Leinster, Perpignan, Aironi mid-week, while the combined Pacific team play Ireland, France and Italy on the weekends.

 

[Joe Mac]

Why is it the responsibility of Sanzar to nurture Pacific Island and/or North American rugby?

To make more money and in doing so; taking some of the power out of the EU's strangle hold on rugby

 

[tigerland12]

having a combined PI team play on a regular basis will only diminish the development of the 3 nations that it's made of.

 

[Jets]

The Olympic funding issue is interesting. In Canada both 7's programs have received funding as Olympic sports and the women's national team receives funding due to their success at the Womens Rugby World Cup. The mens 15 program isn't eligible for any government funding as they aren't successful enough. Rugby Canada are in a difficult position as they have to raise all of the funds for their flagship team.

 

[rustycruiser]

To make more money and in doing so; taking some of the power out of the EU's strangle hold on rugby

How? To oversimplify (and generalize a lot), no one watches rugby in the USA, and no one can afford to watch it in the PIs. So where is the new TV money going to come from? No new market to sell to, and adding NA or the PIs to the 3N doesn't add much value to the package already being sold to the Sanzar country broadcasters (primary markets) and the rest of the world broadcasters.