1. Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Shute Shield 2014 Format

Discussion in 'Shute Shield' started by the coach, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Whale berry Larry Dwyer (12)

    Likes Received:
    The biggest problem with the structure of the SS (and related comps) is there is no scope for transition.
    By this I mean that if a new club (whoever) comes into the SS, chances are they would be competitive against the bottom clubs but would get flogged by the top clubs. (As evidenced by Penrith over the years). This makes it hard to retain players and attract new ones when week after week you get beaten.

    Likewise if Penrith played subbies I have no doubt they would probably top the table year after year, go back to the SS and get flogged again, (not deliberately picking on Penrith, you could say the same about Gordon).

    The most sensible suggestion i have heard over the years was put forward by a wise old kiwi coach and he suggested the following: (bearing in mind this is when there were 1st div and 2nd div)

    Start the year with 24 teams, teams ranked 1-12 play in the 1st tier and teams ranked 13-24 play in the 2nd tier, teams in each tier play each other once.

    At the end of the first round based on ladder positions teams 1-8 from the first tier form pool A, 9-12 from tier 1 together with 1-4 from tier 2 join to form pool B and the balance of tier 2 form pool C. (New points and For and against at this point)

    Then the teams play each with in their pool once

    Under this structure the weaker teams can look forward to the second half of the year with some games against weaker opposition, (gives the players incentive to keep backing up). The top teams of the 1st tier (and the top teams of the 2nd tier) get to play the rest of year against better quality teams only and improve their rugby. (generally players dont like playing in 90-0 floggings)

    End of the second round play off with semis and finals etc.

    It gives the teams in the middle eight a chance to transition up and a chance to improve slowly (because improvement does take time) and equally teams that dont improve are transitioned down the ladder.
    Teams that finished in the top four of pool B start the next year in the top tier, likewise the bottom four start in the 2nd tier.

    THe big question are rankings based on 1st grade or club champ, given that in most cases the strength of a club is dependent on its first grade, i would go with the first grade results.

    As I am a strong believer in the concept of clubs playing together on the same day the lower grades would follow where the first grade ends up.

    Granted you will get some mis matches in the lower grades but ultimately the success of a competition is measured by the quality of the first grade games.

    I know there are fors and against such a structure but if we are genuine about growing and strengthening grade rugby in sydney I dont know how else we can sustainably achieve it.
  2. WorkingClassRugger Steve Williams (59)

    Likes Received:

    Personally, I think it would be more advantageous to the quality of competition for it to split into 2 divisions of 8 teams with the the bottom four of the current format joining with four subbies clubs that either have or could make the jump. So together with the bottom four you could look to get clubs like Balmain and Campbelltown involved and the likes of the Illawarra and such involved.

    I suggest Campbelltown as from my understanding they have over 230 odd juniors registered and having them in a competition of this like could instigate further growth of the game at that level in Sydney's South-West and Macarthur regions.
    Westie likes this.
  3. Whale berry Larry Dwyer (12)

    Likes Received:
    Certainly agree that areas like C'town and Illawarra (why not Central Coast and Newcastle) need to be developed and included in the premier rugby comp of the state.
    The actual numbers are not important, for mine the key is having the "transition" phase that lets new teams have an exposure to better teams, how else do you learn, but at the same time provide them with a level of competition that is equitable.
  4. Dave Beat Paul McLean (56)

    Likes Received:
    My preference is a full home and away, but if that doesn't happen, discussions about a 3rd Tier have another thread, restructuring the whole premier comp would be a major feat. Some questions for 2014;

    1. 10, or 12 teams?

    2. Last years structure split top 6 bottom 6?

    3. This year’s structure?

    As mentioned in recent post there is a huge transition between Shute, and 2nd Division as demonstrated by Penrith and the Dirty Reds. How to drag up, and drag down - I don't know and is it the right thought?
    We have 15 Super teams / 12 Shute teams, start and finish the Shute with the Super comp. This may balance out the back end of the Shute - i.e. now, people seem concerned about Uni's intake at the moment.
    Then a 3rd Tier starts with the returning Super Players and it is played in line with the Rugby Championships.
    The model of the 3rd Tier - different thread (but I'd like the 3rd T to include Colts team / Grade team & shared around club rugby grounds thus allowing the grass roots to kick the ball around and make it a family day).
  5. WorkingClassRugger Steve Williams (59)

    Likes Received:

    That's my thinking with a move to split the current structure into 2 divisions of 8 teams. You get a full 14 round home and away plus finals totaling 16 weeks. After both divisions have determined their respective champions the winner of the 2nd division gets either to play off against the bottom of the 1st division for a spot in the 1st division the next year.

    Some may suggest that the 2nd division clubs would never be able to get up to the standard but if you plan it correctly by involving the likes of the Illawarra, Central Coast, Newcastle and Campbelltown then you would have three country areas with established junior and club bases to build off with another that really needs to be given the opportunity to build the game in its area. Over time it would become quite competitive.

    I agree about running a third tier afterward during the RC. Though as Belly suggests it should be a representative set up. You could even do similar at the colts level.
    Spieber likes this.
  6. AussieDominance Trevor Allan (34)

    Likes Received:

    What you don't understand is that every rugby competition has bottom teams Gordon aren't that far off 10th in the club championship and have beaten Norths, Parramatta and Penrith this season in 1st grade and have a 2nd grade side running 6th.

    They look like making 2 finals out of 5 competitions they compete in. Obviously numbers need to be brought back up again to raise 2nd and 3rd colts teams but I guarantee in 3 years time we will sit here and discuss a similar situation that another club is in. This goes in cycles.

    Norths lose Scott Fava and they money they had(looks like it is happening) as well as Gordon start re building they lose a lot of the player base they have relied upon and they could be in Gordon's position in 3 years time.

    Southern Districts were in all sorts 5 years ago and look and look at the last 2 or 3 years and this year in 1st grade. They have struggled a little in lower grades this year though.
  7. AussieDominance Trevor Allan (34)

    Likes Received:
    Also Parramatta look like it is in reverse in regards to it's first grade side with Christini being the main source for player recruitment it will be interesting to see if at Round 1 next season they have reasonable cattle to go around.

    Nothing against Parramatta but Christini from the outside looked like he was a significant factor in the re building of the club and providing another avenue to recruit players from his contacts in Canberra etc. Fasavalu obviously has contacts in NZ but rep players from NZ usually come at significant cost.
  8. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

    Likes Received:
    Precisely who are the members of the SRU board and Management Structure.

    This organisation seems as secretive as the Freemasons.
  9. Done that Ron Walden (29)

    Likes Received:
    The 2014 format will be the same as the 2013 format, & was always going to be.
  10. Bruce Ross Ken Catchpole (46)

    Likes Received:
    If your mail is right, Dt, and I certainly hope so, I'd be much more inclined to put it down to inertia than being the product of actual consideration.
  11. BellyTwoBlues Guest

    Likes Received:
    you'll find out soon enough.......
  12. Westie Sydney Middleton (9)

    Likes Received:
    there's progress
  13. Dave Beat Paul McLean (56)

    Likes Received:
  14. Gibbo Ron Walden (29)

    Likes Received:
    Good to see the Federal Govt promising $850K for an upgrade to Granville Park, Merrylands. (Now they just have to win that pesky election) this probably should be in the Shute Shield thread
  15. the coach Bob Davidson (42)

    Likes Received:
  16. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

    Likes Received:
    How many clubs actually pay players? Many are too broke to afford it, and if they do, it ain't much.

    Do they consider assistance with accommodation, jobs, medical and physio expenses as part of the Pay? Most clubs do stump up to cover gaps in medical and physio and sometimes assist with accommodation expenses (very moderate assistance in non-palatial share houses generally).
  17. Gibbo Ron Walden (29)

    Likes Received:
    [USER=11820]hugh jarse[/USER] I think you'll find that the ARU is looking hard at the IRU model of no payments outside of playing expenses (as listed above) assistance with Jobs/accom and scholarships.
  18. Blackers13 Syd Malcolm (24)

    Likes Received:
    Anyone who thinks this will work is dreaming. Payments will simply go under the table. Funding cut?? However will we replace the huge $60k the ARU doles out IF clubs meet their criteria. The ARU should be looking at how they can better support club rugby not invent unenforceable rules backed by lame threats.
    I like to watch likes this.
  19. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

    Likes Received:
    Either our Bill needs more training in media management,and he has answered questions without giving it any thought
    Or he has been promoted above his abilities.
    Or both.
    Ryan09 likes this.
  20. the coach Bob Davidson (42)

    Likes Received:
    Not allowing the S15 players to come back to their clubs will move someway towards evening up the competition, but what will happen to the players who are not required by their S15 teams during the course of the season? Don't they get to play anywhere?

Share This Page