South Africa restores race quotas

[PaarlBok]

how do the "coloured" kids feel about this? or "coloured" people in general? do you happen to know?

its just I had a slightly similar experience (without giving too much away) my dad was in charge of a major sponsorship with junior rugby, we were at a rep carnival and my dad was approached by someone who asked "if he'd like me" to be in the team they were picking from this carnival. My dad said no and told me what had happened and I told him he'd made the right call, id hate to be picked in team because of something other than my skill level.

Just curious as to if its maybe the same reaction over there or if its just accepted a lot easier?

Thats the really sad part of Qoutas and the reason why most of them is against this system. Breyton Paulsen have mention this many a time and so far only our local cricket hero Charl Langeveldt withdrew from the Protea cricket team because of this. I call it a lose lose situation. You have to understand that the kids younger then 21 dont have any idea about the political reasoning of this kak. They just want to play sport and be picked on merit.

 

[smithcentral]

No not at all. Its more a problem for the kids that lose out on selection. The white kids will always feel they lost out because of qoutas while the team members bond well as a team. In hockey the coach need to use the players that dont perform on the level in other positions which mean he end up with a lot of strikers as an example. In rugby he need to use the weaker links against the weaker teams.

Thanks. I understand, it sounds like I thought it might be.

 

[PaarlBok]

Look in reality the PoC or Qouta system is a very sensitive issue for all the admins and coaches in SA. We are pretty use to this and if you have a kid and make a noise about this and it get to the wrong ears it can cost it his place in the team. Like I said those involve in this have to understand what "Handle with care means", its been 21 years old now and if only the Saffer that dont have to deal with this think it dont excist in our sport. You cant change the system, you can only help your kid to handle it the best he can. Myself will motivate my kid that he have to be very good to make any provincial team and have to start practise when his team go home. Luckily he understand this concept and reap the rewards.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If I were a parent in RSA I'd just say "fuck it" and withdraw my kids from sport unless they were willing to put up with it or it was part of their school co-curriculum. Kids of all races suffer in this scenario.

 

[PaarlBok]

If I were a parent in RSA I'd just say "fuck it" and withdraw my kids from sport unless they were willing to put up with it or it was part of their school co-curriculum. Kids of all races suffer in this scenario.

I love sport way to much to withdraw my kid from it because of politics. These days is difficult enough to get a kid doing sport with all the PC/PS/XBox/Computors shite.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I love sport way to much to withdraw my kid from it because of politics. These days is difficult enough to get a kid doing sport with all the PC/PS/XBox/Computors shite.

Don't get me wrong Paarl, I love the fact that my kids are active and enjoy sport and recreation activities but the politics would wear me down after a while. They're bad enough at the local footy club, let alone at a national level!

But then again, I'm a hater of politics in general and have a deep seated disdain for many of its practitioners.

 

[PaarlBok]

Don't get me wrong Paarl, I love the fact that my kids are active and enjoy sport and recreation activities but the politics would wear me down after a while. They're bad enough at the local footy club, let alone at a national level!

But then again, I'm a hater of politics in general and have a deep seated disdain for many of its practitioners.

Feel the same Boet. Its pretty easy to teach them from day 1 to play ball, grow a passion for sport, hard work gets rewarded, exct but when it come to politics I have to think twice to get the motivation right.

 

[Slim 293]

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you.. so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.

You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day.

You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.

You have the NAACP. You have BET. If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we'd be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.

If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.

If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists.

We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that??

A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.

If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships. You know we'd be racists.

There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US . Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist college.

In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

I am proud.. But you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists??

-Michael Richards

For the record, this racist bullshit is a fake, and Michael Richards never wrote or said any of it..........

 

[Bullrush]

For the record, this racist bullshit is a fake, and Michael Richards never wrote or said any of it....

While I understand the motivation and can empathise with the sentiment behind whoever did write this, the reality is that not many white people are born into a history of serious oppresion, slavery and injustice.

The pendulum swings in the opposite direction and hopefully we are getting closer to the time where it finds equilibrium.

 

[Braveheart81]

For the record, this racist bullshit is a fake, and Michael Richards never wrote or said any of it....

Absolutely. Michael Richards' racial tirade was far less eloquent (not that what was posted was eloquent at all).

 

[Rassie]

The problem I have is that they have set a equal number of quotas for every team.

Considering that majority of black Africans playing rugby is Xhosa's. Mostly found in the Eastern cape and Western Cape. Feel sorry for Bulls and Griquas as the Griquas region have about 127000 people of all race groups.

Government is actually clever. This forces unions to look after schools instead of the government looking after it. Poor or whatever you must pay your own education and the schools put a lawyer on your ass if your behind with the school fees. So most of the talented players are sponsored by old school boys from a certain school and they will pay the fees. But who is going to pay fees for players only there cause the goverment said so?

The problem is most of the disadvantage community in the EC have no birth certificates, no ID books and they are able to compete against kids 5 to 6 years younger to them only due to size mismatches.

 

[Rassie]

how do the "coloured" kids feel about this? or "coloured" people in general? do you happen to know?

its just I had a slightly similar experience (without giving too much away) my dad was in charge of a major sponsorship with junior rugby, we were at a rep carnival and my dad was approached by someone who asked "if he'd like me" to be in the team they were picking from this carnival. My dad said no and told me what had happened and I told him he'd made the right call, id hate to be picked in team because of something other than my skill level.

Just curious as to if its maybe the same reaction over there or if its just accepted a lot easier?

It all depends what "coloured" you are referring to. The "Coloured" peoples represent a wide range of genetic backgrounds. In simple terms its anyone of mixed race. I am a cape colored and we are chameleons. We can fit in anywhere. They say n Boer maak a plan but die coloured het altyd n plan meaning a Boer makes a plan but the coloured always have a plan.

Let me show you something. Tell me of how many of these name you reckonize? This is a team playing in 1989 in Old Currie Cup first division

Russel Roux; Chester Williams, Avril Williams,
Marthinus Linee, Kelvin Davids; Clark Ellis, Rudolf Paulse (k);
Francois van Wyk, Mornay Visser, Paul Carstens, Jerome Paarwater,
Fritz van Heerden, Marius Werth, Gideon Simons, Peter Bouwer.

"those" struggle years were not as bad as some make it out to be. They say if you make sure the masses stay uneducated you will rule ages.

 

[PaarlBok]

It all depends what "coloured" you are referring to. The "Coloured" peoples represent a wide range of genetic backgrounds. In simple terms its anyone of mixed race. I am a cape colored and we are chameleons. We can fit in anywhere. They say n Boer maak a plan but die coloured het altyd n plan meaning a Boer makes a plan but the coloured always have a plan.

Let me show you something. Tell me of how many of these name you reckonize? This is a team playing in 1989 in Old Currie Cup first division

Russel Roux; Chester Williams, Avril Williams,
Marthinus Linee, Kelvin Davids; Clark Ellis, Rudolf Paulse (k);
Francois van Wyk, Mornay Visser, Paul Carstens, Jerome Paarwater,
Fritz van Heerden, Marius Werth, Gideon Simons, Peter Bouwer.

"those" struggle years were not as bad as some make it out to be. They say if you make sure the masses stay uneducated you will rule ages.

Thanks for telling it as it is Broer, the secret for Saru to develope rugby lies in the coloured community of the south and western cape. Rugby is mostly their household sport in all the school all over the country sides. Thats were they need to develope the sport at the very bottom level. Get one 7 year old boy to play rugby and his family will support and grow the culture. Try to window dress at the upper levels by force wont make any differense and will only lead to more frustration and discrimination against players.

Interesting article about Pik Botha (myself thought he went awol)
http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/08/16/botha-calls-for-codesa-on-affirmative-action

Botha calls for Codesa on affirmative action

by Prinesha Naidoo, August 16 2013, 07:42

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THE apartheid government’s last foreign affairs minister Pik Botha has described affirmative action as a "derogatory, dilapidated system that denigrates black people" and has called for a new Convention for a Democratic SA (Codesa) to tackle the controversial policy.
Speaking at a debate organised by trade union Solidarity on Thursday, Mr Botha said the ruling African National Congress (ANC), through its implementation of the policy, had violated an agreement to remedy the injustices caused by apartheid, reached with the National Party in 1994.
"They misinterpreted it, they thought that if you take a few and make them billionaires, it’s okay … the black people are paying the price, not the white people. The whites are relatively well off," Mr Botha said.
In a curt response to Mr Botha’s remarks, ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu said: "We don’t agree with him."
Panellist Rabelani Dagada, a lecturer in ICT and knowledge management at Wits Business School, echoed Mr Botha’s sentiments. He said South Africa was an abnormal country that lacked values because "comrades are more interested in self-enrichment".
While Mr Dagada said affirmative action was valid in principle, he felt true empowerment could be achieved only through quality education and economic growth and not by fast-tracking the previously disadvantaged. "We should grow the economy, instead of me taking his farm; the system should help me become a farmer without taking his farm," he said.
Mr Botha also called for the education system to be revised: "How much further down must all of us go before we say this is enough now? Our education is far behind, it’s the worst in Africa but has the highest per capita expenditure. Even (Zimbabwean President Robert) Mugabe’s system is better." He said that the lower university admittance requirements for black students were an insult to the students in that the lower requirements take them "back to the inferiority of apartheid".
Mr Botha, who worked alongside former president Nelson Mandela, said the system was deviating from Mr Mandela’s wishes. "He said we must not lose the proficiency of the whites. They must not leave the public service, but should help to train people to achieve that same proficiency."
Mr Botha denied that he joined the ANC after leaving the National Party in 1996: "I was never a member of the ANC and I promise you, here today, that if they continue their policies of today, I will never become a member".
Mr Dagada also spoke poorly of the ANC leadership, calling for more leaders like Mr Mandela, who can transcend differences.
Steven Friedman, director of the Centre for the Study of Democracy, said while affirmative action could have been done differently, the debate was self-serving. "To imply that this is not what was intended in 1993 and 1994 is quite disingenuous … everything that has happened since then has been pretty much consistent with the agreement."

http://ewn.co.za/2013/08/15/Pik-Botha-ANC-has-betrayed-Codesa

Afrikaans one in Die Burger
http://www.dieburger.com/nuus/2013-08-15-bantoe-onderwys-beter-huidige-stelsel-lektor

 

[Rassie]

Paarl I really want to know why the government is saying that people of color never had the opportunity to play rugby because of Apartheid?

Considering that wchool was free, they build thousands of schools with rugby fields the works and in the non white schools we had a choice what sport we wanna do. The boertjies did not have a choice they were told you have to play rugby in school.

Also there were a SA Kwagga and Protea team. It was like the NZ moari team. The coloureds played in the Proteas and went touring and the Black African players played in the Kwagga team.

The biggest thing in SA was development. And why would ignore players on purpose due to their skin colour if that player can make them a stronger side?

Did Errol Tobias get a Spirngbok selection cause he deserved it or cause for window dressing? Well at the biggest stage he succeeded so one can say because he was good enough and they picked him!

Remember WP liga? A WP development side playing in the B section and it was coloureds, white oaks and black Africans playing together. They won the B section I can remember the one year. They beat Eastern Transvaal 22 -16 to clinch the title. You can count the non white players in that team I posted there above. That is about 10 out 15 and the group of 25 players from the squad its 17 to 18. Guys who played rugby week in week out though not against the big teams but in a place where the competition is tough and on equal footing. We know Chester Williams, Mornay Visser, FC SMit (who got nailed by the streaker in Bloem) Paarwater, Linee and host of others went and represent the senior CC sides. Chester WIlliams played Craven Week for WP Liga rugby team and in a schools match he once said James Small made a racist remark against him. Yet some say they were not allowed to play with white people or against them or they got no development. (Chester I am very disappointed in you for saying that) Cravenweek ->WP development side->WP senior team -> Springboks. Dunno but what is that called?

NZ played against a Protea side in the 76 tour. They won by over 20 points if I can remember.

So the problem is not players not getting opportunity because of the color of their skin but because of the thing that is becoming this countries theme tune. Mahalla. We want everything easy. If we have to work hard we just make some laws change the constitution and its done. There we go problem solved.

I don't know about any professional team that will ignore players that cn make them actually better. But now we are making laws to ignore players on purpose.

Just think. The majority who have political power needs thing like affirmative action and BEE to protect it from a small minority. So that is really saying that they can not build their own wealth so they are going to take it from others! SA is the only country in the world where AA is introduced for the majority! How can you be scared of 4 million people and you have power?

 

[PaarlBok]

The WP League head office was in Paarl, played in Dal Josafat Stadium. Myself played a few cricket matches there back in the day. WP Liga was flippen strong. Interesting that a few of that players sons become very good players like Ricardo Croy (play now for Boland), Ashley Johnson (dad is Archie Johnson, played prop for them) and Errols boy (play at Griquas nowadays).

 

[Rassie]

Paarl Namibia went from beating Ireland in a two test series in 91 to bwing flogged and getting a 140 points put on them in less than 17 years.

Namibia played in the B section of the CC. That how strong our competition was. Not only did they tumble into the abyss of low tier rugby they are struggling to beat teams like Morroco. SA is heading that path and the standard of SA rugby have dropped massively. They use to boast a record against NZ which was better than NZ record against SA.

Since then quota's cost us Nick Mallett, Jake White, half the England cricket team, the NZ bowling attack, Rathbone, Jacque Fourie playing for SA week by week, Justin Ontong going from promising youngster to he is not of international class, and many more.

My son have more the appearance and features of my dad who is white in his genes and he have a light skin and looks white. It aggrieves me when I hear stories like a Indian Lady going to a Uni and get told that "Whites and Indians" are now being grouped together when university entrance points are calculated - to enter medicine, you need an "A" aggregate if White or Indian, but only a "C" aggregate if you're a black african! They are also marked more leniently at university to pass.

Off course we know that Indians are actually not Indians but Cape Malay and that they are basically also colored. University is always one of the cogs in the development of SA rugby.

Census say that in 2060 the balance will be restored if using BEE and AA till then.

 

[PaarlBok]

Paarl Namibia went from beating Ireland in a two test series in 91 to bwing flogged and getting a 140 points put on them in less than 17 years.

Namibia played in the B section of the CC. That how strong our competition was. Not only did they tumble into the abyss of low tier rugby they are struggling to beat teams like Morroco. SA is heading that path and the standard of SA rugby have dropped massively. They use to boast a record against NZ which was better than NZ record against SA.

Since then quota's cost us Nick Mallett, Jake White, half the England cricket team, the NZ bowling attack, Rathbone, Jacque Fourie playing for SA week by week, Justin Ontong going from promising youngster to he is not of international class, and many more.

My son have more the appearance and features of my dad who is white in his genes and he have a light skin and looks white. It aggrieves me when I hear stories like a Indian Lady going to a Uni and get told that "Whites and Indians" are now being grouped together when university entrance points are calculated - to enter medicine, you need an "A" aggregate if White or Indian, but only a "C" aggregate if you're a black african! They are also marked more leniently at university to pass.

Off course we know that Indians are actually not Indians but Cape Malay and that they are basically also colored. University is always one of the cogs in the development of SA rugby.

Census say that in 2060 the balance will be restored if using BEE and AA till then.

I fully agree. There is only one way to pick a team and that is on merit. Dunno how long the sins of our farther penalty will go? Can you imagen what will happen if the All Blacks or Wallabies have to pick teams based on this.

 

[biltong]

I fully agree. There is only one way to pick a team and that is on merit. Dunno how long the sins of our farther penalty will go? Can you imagen what will happen if the All Blacks or Wallabies have to pick teams based on this.

But they don't and there is nothing we can do about it.

So why don't we use our wisdom to change what we can and leve the rest up to those who can do something about it.

We are a minority and there aren't enough non whites to vote with us to make these changes.

Hence we have two choices, be the best we can be under the circumstances or blame everyone else for our failure to perform whilst we know full well, even if we did select a team on merit our gameplan is not good enough.

 

[Mank]

Good post biltong. I used to rant a bit about the moral issues of the quota system and non merit selections, and to be fair, if I encounter an uninformed foreigner I will still sometimes point out the problems with the system. However, it's been so long now, and you can only rant so much. Eventually you have to accept what is and try to work within it.

SARU don't have infinite money, and the government are quite content to shout their mouths off rather than do anything to help, but really there are probably some smart things to be done at grass roots level to increase the amount of coloured (I use the term to include all ethnic groups Rassie, please don't shoot me) talent available. I think nutrition from an early age is one huge issue because size becomes a (deciding) factor eventually.

 

[biltong]

Good post biltong. I used to rant a bit about the moral issues of the quota system and non merit selections, and to be fair, if I encounter an uninformed foreigner I will still sometimes point out the problems with the system. However, it's been so long now, and you can only rant so much. Eventually you have to accept what is and try to work within it.

SARU don't have infinite money, and the government are quite content to shout their mouths off rather than do anything to help, but really there are probably some smart things to be done at grass roots level to increase the amount of coloured (I use the term to include all ethnic groups Rassie, please don't shoot me) talent available. I think nutrition from an early age is one huge issue because size becomes a (deciding) factor eventually.

Thanks mank, I haven't checked but if there isn't there should be, look at the Jaques Kallis foundation who takes young kids and puts them through a cricketing school and educate them on all things necessary to become not only a successful cricketer but also a successful person.

From private funding point of view that is really the only way to achieve something, even if it is only a drop in the ocean.

I do agree government can shout off as much as they want, the question that should be asked to them on a public forum is, what are they doing about it?