Springboks vs Argentina - 1st Test TRC 2013
- Thread starter Brisbok
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Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Should be called the FlyingBoks XV.
So that's 5 starters that aren't playing in SA any longer?
And how can Vermeulen start after missing half the season and playing no rugby? There's nobody else I guess.
Jannie du Plessis is very, very lucky. He has been horrible all year. Not cinvinces about Engelbrecht. Adriaanse is much better. I think Jannie is going to get found out under the new engagement laws. Time to move on.
Also time to move on from Juandre Kruger and work on another lock combo. I guess Pieter Steph is the linger terms option but he is broken. The backup is Franco vd Merwe so I guess I'll shut up abotu that one.
Etc etc.
Whatever. I feel kind of meh about international rugby this year.
We could get done in Argie and if we do we could end up fourth in the comp. Not unlikely. I don't back us to win here or accross the dutch.
So that's 5 starters that aren't playing in SA any longer?
And how can Vermeulen start after missing half the season and playing no rugby? There's nobody else I guess.
Jannie du Plessis is very, very lucky. He has been horrible all year. Not cinvinces about Engelbrecht. Adriaanse is much better. I think Jannie is going to get found out under the new engagement laws. Time to move on.
Also time to move on from Juandre Kruger and work on another lock combo. I guess Pieter Steph is the linger terms option but he is broken. The backup is Franco vd Merwe so I guess I'll shut up abotu that one.
Etc etc.
Whatever. I feel kind of meh about international rugby this year.
We could get done in Argie and if we do we could end up fourth in the comp. Not unlikely. I don't back us to win here or accross the dutch.
Brisbok
Cyril Towers (30)
Geez Blue, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I'm not sitting here expecting us to win TRC this year, but I'm certainly not as doom and gloom as you are.
I can't see how our team is any weaker than last year and I actually think we have improved in some areas. It's no secret that we are very thin at THP and No. 5 lock at the moment. But I think we have basically gone with the best available in both positions.
Jannie has certainly not had his best season, but I don't remember the Sharks scrum getting dominated on too many occassions. I think we can hope for parity here in most instances, perhaps struggling slightly with the AB's. A bit premature to speculate how Jannie will go under the new engagement laws without having seen him play under the laws don't you think? Surely this area is an unknown for all 4 teams?
The backrow pick themselves. Vermuelen may be a bit under done but with Spies out, there weren't too many other options there and happy to see Alberts staying at blindside. In our games vs Argentina last year we started off with Alberts, Coetzee and Jacques Potgieter in Mendoza and Keegan Daniel, Alberts and Coetzee in Cape Town - the current loose trio is certainly an improvement on both of those IMO.
The halfback combo - meh. While I'm certainly not the biggest fan of Morne, he has had a good year this year and certainly is in better form and more confident than he was leading into last year's TRC!
I'm also not convinced by Engelbrecht at 13. However last year we had Frans and JdV at 12 and 13 for the first half of the TRC and JdV and Jaco Taute for the 2nd part. I don't see the current combo being any weaker than those two combinations and at least both players have had a full Super Rugby campaign (and showed form) in the positions they have been picked for the Boks this year!
We played with Kirchner at 15 for the whole competition last year. I will be very happy if Willie le Roux starts there instead this year. Yes, he has his brain explosions at times, but IMO more than makes up for it with what he brings on attack. Habana the same as last year. If I remember correctly JPP was out for most of TRC last year so Basson in for Mvovo/Hougard on the one wing - meh.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Dunno whats wrong but I do share Blues views on the Bok team. Meyer is a bit of a disappointing. Getting FdP back from the old age home show he is totally on the wrong track about Springbok rugby future, much worse then Snor who showed he can change when needed. The CC have me much more exciting then Springbok rugby at the moment. Picking chicken runners left right and centre is going to damage our rugby big time. Have no idea why he dont pick BRUSSOUW? Vokket.
Mank
Ted Thorn (20)
Probably because he doesn't rate him.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Jake White syndrome. Brussouw probably will never wear the Bok jersey again.
Mank
Ted Thorn (20)
Coaches syndrome. Coaches must make choices on certain players, we may not always agree, but we're just armchair critics who don't get hired or fired based on results.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Sure, I'll just call it the size syndrome then.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I think that this first game against Argentina might bring some real surprises. Having read all the reports on the first NSW Barbarians trial and watched the second (a very painful experience) I thought the Argentinians had some real class about them. Their scrum, frankly, was frightening and with JdP in pretty poor form but with no one good enough to challenge him, the Boks could end up going backwards all day.
The first Barbarians game had Kepu at LHP, and Ryan at THP; both returned home straight after the game to join the Wallaby squad, so they were not mugs but the Tahs scrum were beaten that day. In the second game the Tahs had Tilse, Holmes and Talakai. Tilse and Holmes both have Super 15 experience, only Talakai was a newbie. That scrum took the worst shellacking I have ever seen at this level - it made Alexander's performance in Lions 3 look spectacularly good.
I know the SA scrum will be a step up, but if the Argies repeat their scrummaging form all three other nations had better lift their scrum or their game plans will be seriously compromised.
I do not think the Argies will be easy-beats, home or away.
The first Barbarians game had Kepu at LHP, and Ryan at THP; both returned home straight after the game to join the Wallaby squad, so they were not mugs but the Tahs scrum were beaten that day. In the second game the Tahs had Tilse, Holmes and Talakai. Tilse and Holmes both have Super 15 experience, only Talakai was a newbie. That scrum took the worst shellacking I have ever seen at this level - it made Alexander's performance in Lions 3 look spectacularly good.
I know the SA scrum will be a step up, but if the Argies repeat their scrummaging form all three other nations had better lift their scrum or their game plans will be seriously compromised.
I do not think the Argies will be easy-beats, home or away.
Brisbok
Cyril Towers (30)
Yes.
The new scrum laws are more likely to benefit the tight heads than the loose heads.
It is easier for a tight head to gain ascendancy when he can take the hit and bind at the same time.
In theory it is more difficult to get underneath your opposition tighthead if you don't have the momentum to hit and go upwards at the same time.
The longer the scrum takes to settle and the ball being fed, the harder it will be for the loose head in theory, but we'll have to see once the packs start scrumming.
I am a tad concerned about Basson in defence, maybe not against Argentina but against NZ and OZ.
Hopefully Meyer has his players focused on reading the referee, especially at the breakdown, the manner how Strockosh nailed us in June was rather pathetic to see.
Argentina is hungry for a big three Scalp, and I reckon we are in for a big game on the weekend.
It is easier for a tight head to gain ascendancy when he can take the hit and bind at the same time.
In theory it is more difficult to get underneath your opposition tighthead if you don't have the momentum to hit and go upwards at the same time.
The longer the scrum takes to settle and the ball being fed, the harder it will be for the loose head in theory, but we'll have to see once the packs start scrumming.
I am a tad concerned about Basson in defence, maybe not against Argentina but against NZ and OZ.
Hopefully Meyer has his players focused on reading the referee, especially at the breakdown, the manner how Strockosh nailed us in June was rather pathetic to see.
Argentina is hungry for a big three Scalp, and I reckon we are in for a big game on the weekend.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
NSW's starting props in Game 1 gave as good as they got bar about 2 scrums. The club props got hammered.
In any case, what is letting Los Pumas down is their centre field. Poor defence, barely any penetration. Most of the good work with the ball was done by their forwards and back three who love the broken field.
I'm expecting the forward packs to largely nullify each other, but JdV to make hay in midfield.
In any case, what is letting Los Pumas down is their centre field. Poor defence, barely any penetration. Most of the good work with the ball was done by their forwards and back three who love the broken field.
I'm expecting the forward packs to largely nullify each other, but JdV to make hay in midfield.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
The Springbok team to face Argentina in Soweto is:
15. Willie le Roux GWK Griquas 3 caps
14 Bjorn Basson Vodacom Blue Bulls 9 caps
13 JJ Engelbrecht Vodacom Blue Bulls 4 caps
12 Jean de Villiers DHL Western Province (captain) 87 caps
11 Bryan Habana Toulon, France 86 caps
10 Morné Steyn Stade Francais, France 45 caps
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N.Ireland 66 caps
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 7 caps
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 21 caps
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 19 caps
5 Juandré Kruger Racing Metro, France 11 caps
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 14 caps
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 45 caps
2 Adriaan Strauss Toyota FS Cheetahs 24 caps
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 44 caps
Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis The Sharks 48 caps
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 40 caps
18 Coenie Oosthuizen Toyota FS Cheetahs 4 caps
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 26 caps
20 Siya Kolisi DHL Western Province 2 caps
21 Fourie du Preez Suntory Sungoliath, Japan 62 caps
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 23 caps
23 Jan Serfontein Vodacom Blue Bulls 3 caps
Stats and facts:
• The Springbok starting team boasts a total of 485 Test caps (300 in the backline and 185 in the forwards), while there are a further 208 caps worth of experience on the bench.
•South Africa and Argentina have played each other 15 times since 1993, with the Springboks winning 14 Tests and one was drawn. The Springboks have scored 587 points and 74 tries, and conceded 294 points and 27 tries for an average score of 39-20.
•South Africa and Argentina last met on 25 August 2012 in Mendoza during the inaugural Castle Lager Rugby Championship. The game ended in a draw, 16-16.
•Jean de Villiers will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok centre, with 72 Tests in this position.
•Morné Steyn will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok flyhalf, with 44 Tests in this position. If he scores a try, he will extend his record of seven Test tries as a flyhalf for South Africa
•Bryan Habana will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok wing, with 85 Tests in this position. He will also equal Joost van der Westhuizen’s record of six career appearances against Argentina and if he scores a try, Habana will extend his record of 50 Test tries for South Africa.
•Bismarck du Plessis needs a try to become the sole record holder of career tries by a Springbok hooker in Tests. He shares this record of six with John Smit.
•Fourie du Preez is back in the team after playing his last test for South Africa in 2011 – against Australia on 9 October, 2011 in Wellington in the quarter-final of the Rugby World Cup, which South Africa lost 9-11.
•The referee is Chris Pollock of New Zealand. This will be his second Test involving South Africa. On 23 July 2011 he was the man in the middle when South Africa lost 20-39 against Australia in Sydney.
Springbok Test match records at FNB Stadium, Soweto:
• Most points – 17 by Morné Steyn (1c, 5p) against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010.
• Most tries – one by Schalk Burger against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 and by Bryan Habana against New Zealand 6 October, 2012.
• Most conversions – one by Morné Steyn against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 and by Johan Goosen against New Zealand on 6 October 2012.
• Most penalty goals – five by Morné Steyn against New Zealand 21 August, 2010.
• No Springbok has ever scored a drop goal in Tests at this venue.
• The Test match against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 was attended by a crowd of 94,713. This is the official record for a Test match in South Africa.
15. Willie le Roux GWK Griquas 3 caps
14 Bjorn Basson Vodacom Blue Bulls 9 caps
13 JJ Engelbrecht Vodacom Blue Bulls 4 caps
12 Jean de Villiers DHL Western Province (captain) 87 caps
11 Bryan Habana Toulon, France 86 caps
10 Morné Steyn Stade Francais, France 45 caps
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N.Ireland 66 caps
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 7 caps
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 21 caps
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 19 caps
5 Juandré Kruger Racing Metro, France 11 caps
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 14 caps
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 45 caps
2 Adriaan Strauss Toyota FS Cheetahs 24 caps
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 44 caps
Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis The Sharks 48 caps
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 40 caps
18 Coenie Oosthuizen Toyota FS Cheetahs 4 caps
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 26 caps
20 Siya Kolisi DHL Western Province 2 caps
21 Fourie du Preez Suntory Sungoliath, Japan 62 caps
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 23 caps
23 Jan Serfontein Vodacom Blue Bulls 3 caps
Stats and facts:
• The Springbok starting team boasts a total of 485 Test caps (300 in the backline and 185 in the forwards), while there are a further 208 caps worth of experience on the bench.
•South Africa and Argentina have played each other 15 times since 1993, with the Springboks winning 14 Tests and one was drawn. The Springboks have scored 587 points and 74 tries, and conceded 294 points and 27 tries for an average score of 39-20.
•South Africa and Argentina last met on 25 August 2012 in Mendoza during the inaugural Castle Lager Rugby Championship. The game ended in a draw, 16-16.
•Jean de Villiers will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok centre, with 72 Tests in this position.
•Morné Steyn will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok flyhalf, with 44 Tests in this position. If he scores a try, he will extend his record of seven Test tries as a flyhalf for South Africa
•Bryan Habana will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok wing, with 85 Tests in this position. He will also equal Joost van der Westhuizen’s record of six career appearances against Argentina and if he scores a try, Habana will extend his record of 50 Test tries for South Africa.
•Bismarck du Plessis needs a try to become the sole record holder of career tries by a Springbok hooker in Tests. He shares this record of six with John Smit.
•Fourie du Preez is back in the team after playing his last test for South Africa in 2011 – against Australia on 9 October, 2011 in Wellington in the quarter-final of the Rugby World Cup, which South Africa lost 9-11.
•The referee is Chris Pollock of New Zealand. This will be his second Test involving South Africa. On 23 July 2011 he was the man in the middle when South Africa lost 20-39 against Australia in Sydney.
Springbok Test match records at FNB Stadium, Soweto:
• Most points – 17 by Morné Steyn (1c, 5p) against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010.
• Most tries – one by Schalk Burger against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 and by Bryan Habana against New Zealand 6 October, 2012.
• Most conversions – one by Morné Steyn against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 and by Johan Goosen against New Zealand on 6 October 2012.
• Most penalty goals – five by Morné Steyn against New Zealand 21 August, 2010.
• No Springbok has ever scored a drop goal in Tests at this venue.
• The Test match against New Zealand on 21 August, 2010 was attended by a crowd of 94,713. This is the official record for a Test match in South Africa.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Brisbok:
My problem with Jannie is that he is at his peak and it's not a high one. You talk about parity being good enough. Maybe for now but we need to get to a point where we have a dominant TH.It's frustrating that there has been no progress in this area for four years. because first Snor and now Meyer are happy to just continue with what everyone knows is "just good enough".
Now there are some injuries, notable to Malherbe who is my pick for the future (and has all the attributes we need for a TH) but why not give a guy like Adriaanse a go. He was strong all year. To pick Steenkamp ahead of him is nonsensical. Lourens did not get dominated once this year. HE was brilliant especially in NZ. What more proof do you need. Fuck this drives me nuts.
As for the picking overseas players issue? All I can say is we should all get used to it. This is the reality. We are only going to see more and more players leave SA and they are going to get younger and younger. It's just the reality.
I am still 50/50 about Fourie DuP. Do we have a truly excellent international class halfback at the moment? No. Pienaar is brilliant for Ulster bit has never produced the same form in a bok jumper. Hougaard is not a 9 and the rest are decent at best.
I think we should be all over them at the breakdown. Louw was excellent last year and the other two are among the best in the world when it comes to moving bodies and protecting the ball. Have to turn up though.
My problem with Jannie is that he is at his peak and it's not a high one. You talk about parity being good enough. Maybe for now but we need to get to a point where we have a dominant TH.It's frustrating that there has been no progress in this area for four years. because first Snor and now Meyer are happy to just continue with what everyone knows is "just good enough".
Now there are some injuries, notable to Malherbe who is my pick for the future (and has all the attributes we need for a TH) but why not give a guy like Adriaanse a go. He was strong all year. To pick Steenkamp ahead of him is nonsensical. Lourens did not get dominated once this year. HE was brilliant especially in NZ. What more proof do you need. Fuck this drives me nuts.
As for the picking overseas players issue? All I can say is we should all get used to it. This is the reality. We are only going to see more and more players leave SA and they are going to get younger and younger. It's just the reality.
I am still 50/50 about Fourie DuP. Do we have a truly excellent international class halfback at the moment? No. Pienaar is brilliant for Ulster bit has never produced the same form in a bok jumper. Hougaard is not a 9 and the rest are decent at best.
I think we should be all over them at the breakdown. Louw was excellent last year and the other two are among the best in the world when it comes to moving bodies and protecting the ball. Have to turn up though.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
Blue so you are saying that a guy who won 3 Super Rugby titles and was part of the 17 game winning streak with the Cape Cabal don't know what he is doing and they should appoint you Bok coach?
Kruger have been the best line out guy out of any SA lock in Super Rugby. The Bulls lineout were successful and its also a crucal platform in the modern game. Put him with a better quality hooker like one can do in the nasional team and we have a solid line out.
Jannie Du Plessis. What has he really done wrong? Experienced campaigner in the front row knows the nicks and tricks and does not feature on the scrum time penalties list. SA tradition is to minimize risk. That means props with lower error prone rates will be the choice.
As for Engelbrecht. I agree about him. He is Meisiekind ver 2.0. Serfontein should have been moved to 13 as he got brilliant distrubution skills.
JJ should have been either moved to the wing in place of Basson or a place on the bench. You will not Engelbrecht is one of the top guys in miss tackles not cause he can't tackle but cause he and Basson go to many times for the intercept meaning he is out of position to defend or occasionally intercept for a try. A bad plague creeping in with our young wingers in this country. Rhule, Surgeal Petersen, Mapoe, Englebrecht, Basson all have that habit. They should start looking at JdV and Habana and read the play more.
As for Brussouw. He once did well in 2009 not because he was quicker and better than McCaw but because his protection at ruck time consisted of guys like Bakkies Botha, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and on occasions Jacque Fourie as well as JP Petersen. In the 2011 WC quarter final we only had ourselves to blame cause no matter how illegal or what Pocock did he was allowed hands on the ball without SA doing the basics first that is proper ruck cleaning, NZ did that in the semi's and he did not have much of a effect on the game.
I think its not the coaches having a syndrome but rather a rugby public looking to see their favorite people play for the team.
By the numbers. What use is there for a guy who if a world class act only manage to knick the ball 11 times in almost 20 games? Compare that they concede twice as much penalties than they get steals we are back at the minimize the risk factor and Brussouw selection would be a waste of the 6 jersey.
Personally I would love if they move Willie back to 10 and let him play there. If Ludik hopefully get over his injury problems he could perfectly slit into that 15 role.
On the FdP issue one got to read between the lines. First of all he did not move to Japan for bucket loads of cash. He moved there to be closer to one of his mentors a guy named Eddie Jones. Because FdP future plans involves coaching rugby professionally. So he is getting tips and some experience from Eddie Jones. Meyer included him to help out with some of the young guys especially positional play as he can pin point kick a ball anywhere he wants. The strategy of the Kiwi's launching their kick and chase team they have a plan and target certain players in a back three like they did with Cooper in the exit zone strategy with the Drop Bomb call.
Kruger have been the best line out guy out of any SA lock in Super Rugby. The Bulls lineout were successful and its also a crucal platform in the modern game. Put him with a better quality hooker like one can do in the nasional team and we have a solid line out.
Jannie Du Plessis. What has he really done wrong? Experienced campaigner in the front row knows the nicks and tricks and does not feature on the scrum time penalties list. SA tradition is to minimize risk. That means props with lower error prone rates will be the choice.
As for Engelbrecht. I agree about him. He is Meisiekind ver 2.0. Serfontein should have been moved to 13 as he got brilliant distrubution skills.
JJ should have been either moved to the wing in place of Basson or a place on the bench. You will not Engelbrecht is one of the top guys in miss tackles not cause he can't tackle but cause he and Basson go to many times for the intercept meaning he is out of position to defend or occasionally intercept for a try. A bad plague creeping in with our young wingers in this country. Rhule, Surgeal Petersen, Mapoe, Englebrecht, Basson all have that habit. They should start looking at JdV and Habana and read the play more.
As for Brussouw. He once did well in 2009 not because he was quicker and better than McCaw but because his protection at ruck time consisted of guys like Bakkies Botha, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and on occasions Jacque Fourie as well as JP Petersen. In the 2011 WC quarter final we only had ourselves to blame cause no matter how illegal or what Pocock did he was allowed hands on the ball without SA doing the basics first that is proper ruck cleaning, NZ did that in the semi's and he did not have much of a effect on the game.
I think its not the coaches having a syndrome but rather a rugby public looking to see their favorite people play for the team.
By the numbers. What use is there for a guy who if a world class act only manage to knick the ball 11 times in almost 20 games? Compare that they concede twice as much penalties than they get steals we are back at the minimize the risk factor and Brussouw selection would be a waste of the 6 jersey.
Personally I would love if they move Willie back to 10 and let him play there. If Ludik hopefully get over his injury problems he could perfectly slit into that 15 role.
On the FdP issue one got to read between the lines. First of all he did not move to Japan for bucket loads of cash. He moved there to be closer to one of his mentors a guy named Eddie Jones. Because FdP future plans involves coaching rugby professionally. So he is getting tips and some experience from Eddie Jones. Meyer included him to help out with some of the young guys especially positional play as he can pin point kick a ball anywhere he wants. The strategy of the Kiwi's launching their kick and chase team they have a plan and target certain players in a back three like they did with Cooper in the exit zone strategy with the Drop Bomb call.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
No Rassie. I have an opinion. So do you, in fact you have many and that's fine.
You pick me out for having an opinion and then proceed with a lecture.
I have no favorite people. I was pointing out concerns with certain incumbents.
You seem to love drawing people out into long nonsensical debates. Lift the brim of your tin foil hat. You're staring at your own reflection.
This is forum. People have opinions that differ. Accept that or move along.
You pick me out for having an opinion and then proceed with a lecture.
I have no favorite people. I was pointing out concerns with certain incumbents.
You seem to love drawing people out into long nonsensical debates. Lift the brim of your tin foil hat. You're staring at your own reflection.
This is forum. People have opinions that differ. Accept that or move along.
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