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State and Territory politics

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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
It's interesting to watch,but does it have any real value?
It's been over a year since Obeid & his billionaire mates were exposed as acting corruptly.
And nothing....

Absolutely it has value.

The key thing to remember is for criminal activity we would have to show that the money was obtained by the "slush funds" was obtained under false pretences or the funds were misused by the directors of the organisation. From the reporting of the matters the funds were not obtained under false pretence. Again from the reports they were obtained in a manner designed to circumvent the Parliamentary rules banning certain entities and individuals from donating. The acts of setting up such mechanisms to knowingly circumvent the rules is a serious ethical matter, far exceeding misuse of travel entitlements. It is unlikely to be criminal fraud, but it certainly in my mind shows the integrity of those involved, and questions can rightly be asked then if such people a fit and proper to hold such posts.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
I would suggest Runner that you either attend some public hearings at the ICAC, Local, District and Supreme Courts and if possible hearings at the NSW PIC. Then re-assess your position.

At the very least read the transcript of the proceedings. To compare them to what the Star Chamber courts became in the 16th century is a blatant misrepresentation of what has occurred here, and the functioning of these very important bodies.

These individuals are coming unstuck from their own actions and the evidence presented in so many cases are documents from their own hand, which is an irony that never ceases to amuse me.

The first thing that all of those who have appeared should have remembered about the ICAC and the other standing commissions of inquiry is that they never ask a question that they do not have the answer to and the evidence to back it up. They are fools of the highest degree in this regard in addition to anything else that may be found.

Make no mistake I do not think that anybody will be convicted of any offence, even if they are charged, simple because the burden of proof required is exceedingly high and the evidence easily muddied and contorted to find that nth degree of "reasonable" doubt.

As I have said before where low level officials in Councils and Police Officers and other bodies have been in situations similar to those we see here, those individuals are not allowed to move into the shadows of the organisation they are either forced to resign or sacked. So it should be here, there are serious questions of integrity and ethical conduct that have been breached and I question how the public can have any faith in any Politician from either side of the house given they have either known of these activities and condoned them by inaction or they were wilfully blind. Neither side can take any moral high ground because both are compromised.

I think you'll find there are things missing like no disclosure rules etc which in a court would not happen. Putting it in a building and people playing dress ups does make it a court. It will hand down a report which may lead to criminal charges. We have here the ability to muddy peoples names who will never recover ( on both sides) and then no conviction is ever made.
What is indicated above is not a fair judicial system.

Read this as to where I am coming from from a more accomploished word user.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ought-to-account/story-fn53lw5p-1226861622476#
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Absolutely it has value.

The key thing to remember is for criminal activity we would have to show that the money was obtained by the "slush funds" was obtained under false pretences or the funds were misused by the directors of the organisation. From the reporting of the matters the funds were not obtained under false pretence. Again from the reports they were obtained in a manner designed to circumvent the Parliamentary rules banning certain entities and individuals from donating. The acts of setting up such mechanisms to knowingly circumvent the rules is a serious ethical matter, far exceeding misuse of travel entitlements. It is unlikely to be criminal fraud, but it certainly in my mind shows the integrity of those involved, and questions can rightly be asked then if such people a fit and proper to hold such posts.

Perhaps. How many people set up tax arrangements for themselves which are legal but perhaps not ethical.

Selling cigarettes is legal but is it ethical.


Read this as to where I am coming from from a more accomploished word user.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ought-to-account/story-fn53lw5p-1226861622476#
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I think you'll find there are things missing like no disclosure rules etc which in a court would not happen. Putting it in a building and people playing dress ups does make it a court. It will hand down a report which may lead to criminal charges. We have here the ability to muddy peoples names who will never recover ( on both sides) and then no conviction is ever made.
What is indicated above is not a fair judicial system.

Read this as to where I am coming from from a more accomploished word user.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ought-to-account/story-fn53lw5p-1226861622476#


The disclosure rules I assume you speak of regard the presentation of the prosecution of the evidence to the accused before they reply (read make up their story).

There is a good reason why these are called Inquiries. They run under a sort of Inquisitorial system.

I have no problem at all in asking these people these questions. As I have said they have managed to besmirch themselves through their own actions. If they had not given the ICAC the evidence to ask the questions there would be no issue. Nobody has been forced from office because they didn't do something they could of.

I also wondered where you got the Star Chamber reference from. The author Van Onslen should do some research on the Star Chamber courts he refers to instead of quoting something that sounds nice and dramatic. Those courts were founded in the 16th century for an extremely good reason, to prosecute people who had too much power and influence for the Court system of the day to achieve just outcomes. The pejorative usage comes about because they morphed into a political tool for the Monarchy to remove those not in tune with their demands and for English nobility to dispossess their landholders of their rights.
Just one of the major differences is that the ICAC style hearings are public (mostly) and witnesses/testimony and documents become part of the public record.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Perhaps. How many people set up tax arrangements for themselves which are legal but perhaps not ethical.

Selling cigarettes is legal but is it ethical.


Read this as to where I am coming from from a more accomploished word user.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi.ought-to-account/story-fn53lw5p-1226861622476#


People and their Tax arrangements are a matter of the law, and those laws are set by these elected officials.

As for selling a legal product, you may as well ask is it ethical to sell a vehicle that can exceed the speed limit. It remains a democracy and there is a personal responsibility to obey the rules in whatever endeavour is being discussed, including politics.

The elected officials have made rules to ensure the probity and ethics of Parliament and protecting the standing of Parliament with the public.

That these members of Parliament have sought to circumvent those rules in secret and convoluted means shows that they knew such actions would not be accepted by the community and were in breach of the spirit of those rules. As I said I doubt any criminal charges will be brought, let alone proven unless significantly more evidence of a different nature comes to light. That said I remain convinced that such unethical and dishonest actions are incompatible with the positions that these people have been elected to and taken oath for.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
People and their Tax arrangements are a matter of the law, and those laws are set by these elected officials.

As for selling a legal product, you may as well ask is it ethical to sell a vehicle that can exceed the speed limit. It remains a democracy and there is a personal responsibility to obey the rules in whatever endeavour is being discussed, including politics.

The elected officials have made rules to ensure the probity and ethics of Parliament and protecting the standing of Parliament with the public.

That these members of Parliament have sought to circumvent those rules in secret and convoluted means shows that they knew such actions would not be accepted by the community and were in breach of the spirit of those rules. As I said I doubt any criminal charges will be brought, let alone proven unless significantly more evidence of a different nature comes to light. That said I remain convinced that such unethical and dishonest actions are incompatible with the positions that these people have been elected to and taken oath for.

I am sorry we will not agree on this. I beleive what you advocate and what the ICAC does could lead us down a very slipper road with wiffs of McCarthy.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Runner without ICAC and similar Inquiries those who are smart enough and have the power and position to create systems will exploit those positions to ensure the continuance of their (or their group's) power (which has happened with the Liberals) and/or achieve some personal benefit.

Then because those individuals have written the rules/laws and have such significant power/wealth no conviction will ever be made and their ends will be met without recourse. Further more any journalist or citizen questioning their actions will be met with suit for defamation. If you doubt this check the history of Qld and NSW between the end of WW2 and 1990. Successive Inquiries including the Fitzgerald Inquiry in Qld, the Wood, Woodward and Street Royal Commissions in NSW have all demonstrated the need for such standing Inquiries and indeed Tony Fitzgerald QC (Quade Cooper) has recently been highly critical of the Qld government's proposals to reduce the scope of the Qld CMC, in an obvious attempt to protect themselves from NSW-like scrutiny.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Nah I know Marie vaguely (worked in the NSW parliament) and she is nuts about her fucking dog. References it in plenty of her speeches in the LC.

She may well be telling fibs about the donation stuff, but her devotion to that dog is 100% legit.
.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Yeah that's the NSW upper house for you. You get some real oddballs. Lower house is much more sane.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
LETTERS

1399628542262.jpg-300x0.jpg


Poor excuse for memory lapse


Convenient lapses of memory are one thing (Oh, THAT bottle of Grange!) but Marie Ficarra's schnauzer excuse is perilously close to ‘‘The dog ate my homework’’ (‘‘Marie Ficarra accused of 'fibbing’ ’’, May 9) .

Garth Clarke North Sydney

If I was a miniature schnauzer forced to lie critically ill around the vet’s clinic for two months, I would have been pleading with my master to do the humane thing and have me euthanised – even if they hit me with a piece of Eightbyfive I am sure I would not have felt a thing.

Milton Battaglini Carindale

The reason we don't have a federal-level ICAC, Ken Pryde (Letters, May 9) is purely because the Coalition and Labor keep voting it down every time the Greens propose it in parliament. They did the same for years with the Greens' proposed royal commission into institutional child abuse. (A poll taken soon after the royal commission was set up showed a whopping 97 per cent of voters approved of it.)
Funny thing is, people still persist in believing it's the Greens that are the extremist party that is out of touch with mainstream Australia.

Lloyd Swanton Wentworth Falls


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-letters/petrol-price-rise-in-keeping-with-governments-double-standards-20140509-zr7qc.html#ixzz31HBitQyp
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
Newcastle Liberal MP (Moana Pasifika) Tim Owen says he will not contest next election

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/newcastle-liberal-MP (Moana Pasifika)-tim-owen-says-he-will-not-contest-next-election-20140512-zra1r.html#ixzz31Ue8LP4n
 
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